According to this article (which originally contained no less than 5 spelling mistakes) in the Pioneer Press, ISD 191 is considering moving to a four day school week in order to cut costs. While this has been well received in districts across the state which have already made the change, some may wonder if those high costs will be instead borne by families looking for daycare to cover the shorter week.
From the article:
A combination of flat revenue and declining enrollment has district leaders looking for ways to offset growing operational costs as the result of inflation.
Projections show Burnsville may need to cut as much as $5 million each of the next three years to maintain the district’s roughly $107 million annual budget.
[...]
Under the proposal, students would essential (sic) get every other Monday off in exchange for longer school days. The time for student instruction would not decrease, but the move would save $776,000 in transportation in (sic) other costs, according to district budget records.
Are you a parent in ISD191? If so what do you think about lengthening the school day but removing one day every other week? Would this cause you problems finding affordable daycare for your children while you work? Would your work allow you a more flexible work schedule to meet the demands of the district? Do you believe that this will save the the money the district claims? Do you think that the additional days set aside for teachers to improve instruction will be helpful?
Whatever you have to say about this one go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear what you have to say.
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April 18th, 2012 at 7:11 am
Our kids already spend less time in the classroom than almost every other developed country on the planet. The race to the bottom continues.
What this will do is accentuate the decline in enrolment as parents who care, the very parents who you want in the school distrcit, will put their kids in private schools. Sad state of affairs.
April 18th, 2012 at 8:11 am
I’m a parent with 2 kids in this district, & I love the idea. Does shortening the school year by 17 days really drag our kids to the bottom? I’d rather figure out care for my 2 kids 17 extra days of the year, versus having them in a classroom with 40 other kids for the entire one hundred seventy some odd number of days.
School is not supposed to be daycare. We do what we have to do to make things work. I’m happy to make the change. Sure, it won’t be easy since we don’t have any family around that can simply ‘babysit’ on the no school days – but we adjust. We always adjust.
I don’t think of school as ‘daycare’ for my kids – and I for one, hate having to pack everything into the two days off we do have together as a family. A 3 day weekend from time to time would be wonderful. Time for the kiddos to possibly sleep in & get caught up on some much needed rest, a trip to Grandma’s that might otherwise not be possible with just 2 days off…
Change is always hard, no matter how big or how small.
This is no small change, but it’s one I’d love.
Wouldn’t it be great if our schools AND our employers moved us to 4 day weeks, EVERY week? ;)
April 18th, 2012 at 8:11 am
I find it strange that the district 191 while proposing this to save money is also adding FREE all day Kindergarten. Where is the logic to that?
The administration in this distict has been all over the news lately and it doesn’t seem like the are making the best decisions. I’m really glad I live in another school district.
April 18th, 2012 at 8:15 am
dsw, the K finding comes from a specific state source that is not concrete.
April 18th, 2012 at 8:15 am
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April 18th, 2012 at 9:13 am
Tom S
Are you fucking kidding? What don’t you understand about the reality that teachers get PROMOTED into supervisory positions that pay better than what they earned as a teacher. 75 grand for an administrator is market value, if not below. If you get promoted to Home Loan Manager, do you expect to take a pay cut? I get that you are bitter because banks don’t pay for shit, but you have very little contact with reality it would seem.
As well. I am pretty sure that when you work at a bank and review personal income information that you are compelled by privacy expectations to not divulge that info, even if you are an anonymous blog commenter.
Maybe if the teachers at your school growing up got paid better, you would have known how to spell superintendent properly. Amazing.
lefty
April 18th, 2012 at 9:32 am
Tom, perhaps you didn’t intend it this way, but your post comes off far less than you suggesting some constructive fiscal retooling than it does you merely sounding bitter about somebody making more money than you for a job you don’t readily appear to understand.
I know, to a moderate degree, what those job titles you cite entail on a daily basis. And while this certainly is just me talking, I probably wouldn’t take any them for $75k/yr.
Anyway, to the topic at hand…
I don’t live in ISD 191. I do, however, live in and have a child in district 196. If what they proposed happened here, I’d have the personal and immediate burden of figuring out just what the hell to do with my kid on those Mondays. This would be a horrible pain the ass, but I don’t think the district is ignorant of that fact.
Sadly, districts have their backs up against the walls here. Making their education even less quality does not sound like a good option. So, here we are. What I wonder is if the kids will have the mental endurance to glean the net value from the longer days. If the classrooms remain as overcrowded as they are now, I seriously doubt it. I’d like to be wrong about this.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:35 am
IIRC, 196 is alos going with the “all-day K for everybody” and I’m in favor of it. For one thing, this half-day silliness requires a set of busses for morning and for afternoon. Wa$te.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:36 am
I don’t have any kids myself, but wouldn’t the longer school days actually be somewhat beneficial and reduce after school costs for parents who work nine to five?
April 18th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Claire: I’d imagine yes, they would. :)
April 18th, 2012 at 9:53 am
Claire, I guess it depends on the age of the children. Parents with a 9/10 year old may just leave their children unattended after school for an hour or so until they get home (as my parents did with me at that age). They may also be able to stay at a friend’s house who has a stay at home parent for that 1/2 hour span for free each day after school.
If you go to a full day off then it’s likely that babysitting services will be required.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:28 am
Yep, for too many people, school is just another word for daycare. (Remember our discussion of three meals a day at school)?
If I recall correctly, the district recently settled with the teachers union for a (modest) bump in the pay scale that was better than some other districts in the metro. Rather than make such a drastic restructuring of the calendar, why not freeze the salary scale?
In addition, the district out to be better managed. Remember the official who was hire, fired, and given a fat payout after six months?
Lefty, the bank employee revealed no information that can be tied to any individual, so I don’t see any problem. There are various online sources, such as Salary.com, that give similar information. And anyway, if the public is paying someone’s salary, it ought to know what it’s paying. I have a feeling that’s not the case at the moment, though I’ve never bothered to check.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:31 am
They’re public employees. Their salary information is public anyway.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:41 am
I am simply calling him out on principle.
If you work at a bank, you are bound by privacy expectations, whether or not the information is otherwise public. I was offended by his source more than what he posted regarding salaries.
Also, I was once the equivalent of a “Home Loan Manager” at a bank somewhere in my deep dark history.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:43 am
I definitely don’t disagree with you. Mark this day down in history. *look* just saw a pig fly!
April 18th, 2012 at 10:51 am
I have to echo what Sank said.
We live in 191, and have a 4 year old going into kindergarten next year. We applied for open enrollment to several other schools and were not accepted at any of them. It seems open enrollment is quite popular as parents want to get kids into good schools.
We have enrolled our child in a private school for kindergarten, and while it was not our first choice, we are far more comfortable spending the money to send him to a private school than we were with the thought of him attending 191 after visiting several of the schools within our own district.
Our hope is to apply again for open enrollment next year and hope that with less movement at the first grade level he may get into a public school that we are excited about.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:07 am
Dave Helke, the principal at the high school, makes $129,000 a year. Not bad for a 7 hour day for half the year.
Lefty, I am awaiting your response.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:09 am
NWRG, While I agree that 129,000 is excessive for an administrator in the public sector, I am fairly certain that the principal works much longer days than the 7 hours the students are mandated to be in class.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:17 am
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April 18th, 2012 at 11:20 am
I simply stated that I believe he works longer than the 7 hour days you noted.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:26 am
NW Rochester Guy,
You are answering your own question. He is responsible for ensuring that all of those administrators you mention, plus the teachers and even the janitorial staff perform at a high level.
I could probably do some additional research and come back and let you know that his pay is more than likely in line with others in a similar job with his personal level of experience, but I don’t really feel like it since I am at work typing on this blog site already. If somebody else wants to do that, feel free to poke holes in my assumption.
I also have no personal knowledge of his level of success, so I can’t speak to that either.
Bottom line, public or private, if you are “The Boss” of a lot of people, you are probably worth making into 6 figures.
I have never understood why people, when they are unhappy with their own personal income, like to complain about what other people make. Those people need to buck up and look for a better job.
lefty
April 18th, 2012 at 11:33 am
Also, I am pretty sure that a school principal has to work year round.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:47 am
I’m with Lefty. You can’t say he makes too much money unless you have something to compare it to, i.e. managers/directors in the private sector with similar scopes of responsibility (number of people that report to them, budget, etc).
April 18th, 2012 at 11:54 am
Tim/Lefty,
The problem with the public sector is that all too often comparisons are made simply on potential work, number of employees, and similar positions in cities/counties nearby. This really needs to be reconsidered for each and every position depending on some of the factors that NWRG noted above.
If you’re a Principal with the equivalent of 3 assistants, than it’s highly likely your work isn’t as demanding as a nearby principal with 2 or less. In addition, those with that many assistants with other similar districts having less may want to re-prioritize the work being done by those at the top. All too often managers spend too much time doing nothing (meetings) and not enough being effective (rarely can anything effective be accomplished in meetings).
So while I don’t doubt that the principal probably earns an appropriate amount when compared to his peers across industry, I definitely have reservations about saying they are all being paid appropriately. It would be very difficult to say for certain one way or the other without more details.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:56 am
Bill,
I was suggesting that if you consider he probably works, on average, 2 hour days in the summer and 9 hour days during the school year, his overall average is less than 7 hours a day. I come up with 6.34 hours a day average, assuming he gets 2 weeks of vacation (but probably more).
Lefty,
The people he is “The Boss” of are called support staff. That’s because they support him and make his job easier. I think most people would agree that the work support staff does for you offsets the work you incur managing them.
Why do you assume I am unhappy with my income? Can’t I simply have an opinion on a topic? It appears that your MO is to attack those that oppose your ideas (the banker divulged private information – kind of) rather than just use logic.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Depends on the work they do and whether you can easily remove them if they’re ineffective.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
The true test of any leader, private or public is best recognized when analyzing how well his business functions when on vacation. A great leader hires highly competent people, sets up a succession plan and does everything he can to ensure that he is completely replaceable when he moves on to the next job. His primary functionality should be to make sound decisions on hiring, finances and to grow and develop everyone on the staff to be great at what they do.
They are hired for what it in their brain a whole lot more on how many hours they put in or how hard they appear to be working at any given time, even if it is only 6.34 hours per day year round. I can’t remember the last time I worked more than 6 hours in a day (not including when I have to travel) and I would not trade jobs and salary with that High School Principal.
Again, I am speaking in generalities and not of the guy in Burnsville since I don’t have any idea if he is any good at his job. I also used the masculine terms regarding leader only to save typing. A good leader can be a dame too.
NW Rochester Guy, I never assumed you were unhappy with your income. I do assume the bank loan pencil pusher is though.
lefty
April 18th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Have no trust in the “decision making” ability of Burnsville school district 191. From the hush money payoff of $255,000 to the Envision Arts magnet school fiasco this school board just keeps on spending taxpayer money. In 2009 Burnsville School District took advantage of “bonding power” bestowed upon school districts by the 2008 legislature. This raised our taxes to pay for retired school teacher’s medical, dental and life insurance. Now to save money they will be reducing the time of basic education. I’m sure the Power Point presentation was outstanding BUT how will this decision truly affect student education?
April 18th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
NWRG, As pointed out earlier, your assertion about value:pay ratio was based upon your “7 days and 6 months” math, which we’re all pretty sure is woefully incorrect. As already suggested at least twice in this thread, perhaps understanding the job duties helps us better understand the associated pay.
I think I kind of have to side with Lefty (again, curses!!) when he alludes that you, much like Tom S, come off as both a tad bitter and missing details.
Let us know what your reserach digs up! :)
April 18th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I have little to no opinion on if his salary is appropriate. I would say that he has led at least one fairly collosal financial blunder involving the severance package previously discussed, which was a 250,000 hit that the district and taxpayers have to cover.
I was also somewhat shocked by what NWRG indicated are his support staff. Seems like alot of people at the top of the pyramid to me. Not sure how that compares to other districts, but I do find it interesting.
District 191 is not known for providing an outstanding education, particularly when compared with neighboring districts. One of the school board members stated this pretty bluntly in the debate about reducing the number of school days. The district is loosing students, although I am pretty sure that the district population has continued to grow. When we went to open houses for kindergarten, almost all of the discussion was on bullying, behavior disorders, proper nutrition, sleep habits, ESL classes, not bringing kids to school sick, tired, hungry, etc. There was little to no discussion on adademics, philosphy, teaching, etc. At William Byrne there was considerable discussion about community and the involvement of the PTA (or whatever its called), but no discussion at all of the STEM program, which I found odd as it is the STEM school for 191.
All in all, as a parent with a 4 year old, there was very little that impressed me about 191, and even with all day kindergarten being free (which I think they did simply to try to gain enrollment), we opted to look elsewhere.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Chad,
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the issues the woman had was with the superintendent, not the principal.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
As a parent of 3 kids 2 and under, I’ve been increasingly considering whether I need to move to another district. The problems in 191 aren’t being solved. While I realize every district has its own set of problems, things just seem a little more off in 191 than in comparable districts.
I’m not suggesting it’s at the level of Minneapolis, but it’s not good.
As for 4-day school weeks, that’s the least of our concerns. Changing the length of the days or the frequency won’t do anything unless the kids are being taught in the first place. I’m very suspect of our education system in general as the results just don’t measure up, and it will take a lot more than Waiting for Superman to accomplish any real change.
April 18th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
I live in this district. When I first heard that the idea of shorting the school week was being floated as a trial balloon, it does sound like an interesting cost savings idea. The all-day kindergarten was already mentioned in the conversation of “why is this being implemented”, when the school district needs to cut costs.
Although, the cynical side of me is really wondering if this is about generating more funds for the school district .. if there is outrage on shorting of the school week, can it be purposed to raise taxes to keep the status quo with the class schedule.
April 18th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I agree with Tom S. I’m in a job that also allows access to people’s incomes. It is not unusual for teachers with a Masters to make $75,000. Considering that they get all the school breaks off, summers off, and approximately 14 paid other days off a year, paid family health care, life insurance, etc., it is the equivalent of a job paying in excess of $112,500. I’m sure some deserve that. But – there are a lot of lawyers, doctors, accountants, bankers, sales persons, etc. that aren’t making that. To whine that they are underpaid is ridiculous. Further, anyone in a job that can’t get fired without the district spending tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars is ridiculous. Additionally, how are they reviewed? It gets old hearing about how great teachers are. Some certainly are – some aren’t. The problem is the system that can’t get rid of the bad ones and costs us a ton of money. I’d say fix that problem first. Further – the union is mandatory and they pay it with funds from taxpayers – so we’re paying to pay more. This would never work in the private world. Unions have ruined it and the public isn’t given the correct facts – scare tactics are used to make it sound like our children won’t be educated. Shameful!
April 18th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Here’s a little fact that no one has mentioned, as the spouse of a First Student Bus Driver who doesn’t get a pension, affordable health insurance, doesn’t get paid when there are holidays, conferences, spring or winter breaks, two hour late starts, etc., etc. etc. and has watched this district piss money down the toilet by providing all day paid kindercare, $250,000 cover up exit packages, and numerous other things I don’t have time to mention, now we’re being asked to take a 10% cut in income by working 17 less days. It doesn’t really matter anymore since the drivers just learned today that the administration plans on voting tomorrow to switch to a different bus company from out of state, so the drivers will all be out of work come June 30th anyhow. So all you parents who valued knowing the bus driver who drove your child to and from work come June 30th that will change. Finally, as a resident of Burnsville we have seen our property tax house value from 07′ to 12′ decline by 18% yet our taxes for the school district has increased 21%. This board needs to go!
April 18th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Tom M,
Can’t your spouse just apply for a bus driving job at the new company? Maybe they will have better pay and benefits for working 17 less days.
Just because you feel like you are on the wrong end of this one doesn’t mean you need to stay there. There are a lot of jobs on the market with benefits that do not require bus driving skills that I bet a bus driver could do.
lefty
April 18th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
The world is tilting on its axis, lefty is making sense. He’s probably into his Bunnahabhain…
April 18th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Ben Franklin, most teachers I know would agree with you, tenuring in shitty teachers pisses off the good ones to no end. If I do a crappy job, I lose my job. You’re right, the union has built too thick a wall.
On the flipside, however, here’s yet another comment along the lines of “I don’t know how many hours teachers work, nor what the job entails, but they’re probably paid too much! Rawr!”
April 18th, 2012 at 2:53 pm
π
April 18th, 2012 at 2:53 pm
‘and has watched this district piss money down the toilet by providing all day paid kindercare,’ -
I don’t see how providing full day kindy for everyone is pissing money down the toilet. The kids that need it the most, sadly, are the kids whose parents cannot afford to pay the $3k in tuition that it costs to send them. The # of students getting free or reduced lunch at my kiddos’ school is right around the 50% mark.
All these people who are so concerned about our kids spending ‘less time’ in the classroom with this new proposal, yet they are all for not funding the full day kindy, (which comes from a different funding source anyway as I understand it)
it just doesn’t make sense.
Obviously, if this passes, many of us will be inconvenienced at some level – but truthfully, the current schedule isn’t ideal for us working parents either. We currently have a 9:15 start time and a 3:40 end time at school. That isn’t exactly conducive to our jobs either…and also presents it’s own ‘daycare issue’ of sorts.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Not yet C&V! Just a slow day at work. I have probably put in less time working than a High School Principal does on Thanksgiving today.
I am saving that 25 year for a little occasion with a few of my buddies from Fantasy Football. It was our 25th year of playing and I want them all to know that I spent the money I took from them this year on something completely and utterly discretionary. Doing that is more fun than beating them.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:05 pm
I’m always surprised at the vitriol against teachers. Everyone knows one and yet some would deny them a decent payday and think they work 6 hrs a day, and only part of the year. The median salary for an middle-school teacher in ISD191 is $40,156. Ever deal with a 7th grader?
April 18th, 2012 at 3:06 pm
I worked for the state for many years. I made less than their median salary when I left. I have no sympathy for them because instead of 7th graders I got to deal with unionized employees.
They’re overpaid. Plain and simple.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
No “thumbs down” for Bill’s comments. So, to comment #43 :-( TD
April 18th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
To be honest, as someone who lives in 191, what they probably need to do is close a school or two. However, this has received plenty of objections when it has been proposed as well.
These conversations are always interesting to me, because I don’t and won’t have kids in the district, but I do pay taxes to support 191 just the same (you’re welcome, parents).
April 18th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
No way. How can you say less than 41K is overpaid for a job that requires a Bachelor’s degree and who often have a Master’s just to keep up with the hiring pool?
April 18th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Because those with a masters degree aren’t making the median and I have a bachelor’s degree.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
The problem with teacher pay is people don’t take the entire package into consideration. Not only are they getting their base salary, but they’re usually also getting a fantastic health care package, pension, etc. Of course, this varies to some degree by district. But let’s not kid ourselves here. A teacher making $40,000 is probably on par with someone in the private sector making $45,000-$55,000 when actual benefits are taken into consideration.
Pay is about far more than just salary.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
So, why aren’t any of you teachers? It sounds AWESOME!
April 18th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
jorn,
Because I was smart enough to choose a different career path. Teachers bitch that they’re not fairly compensated (I obviously argue they are) and that their jobs suck. Teachers are well educated and could easily fit into any number of private sector jobs if they chose to (corporate training for example).
Their liberal arts backgrounds open them to a wide variety of options. They just continue to choose to lock themselves into a career which they apparently believe pays them too little for the work they do.
My lack of sympathy extends to this complaint of theirs as well.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Teacher pay is a subject that has come up more than a few times on here. I think the idea that teachers are underpaid is still around, yet is clearly outdated.
I think there are some teachers who are worth far more than they make. There are also a large number of teachers who are doing a horrible job and are woefully overpaid/in the wrong profession. Thats the crux of the discussion. I am all for great teachers making a great income. But I would rather bad teachers be fired than make a single penny. The harm they do to all of us goes far beyond the money they are making.
As noted, teachers have a great benefit plan, retirement plan, and make a pretty reasonable salary to go with the other two. In addition, in many places, teachers are able to max out their pension in one place and then move on and finish their career in another and establish a second pension.
Its not a job for everyone. I certainly could not do it, and would not want to. The problem is that lots of people who should not be doing it are, because they know its a job with great benefits, lots of days off, and very little risk of being unemployed if they make it past the first several years.
C & V, does your median income account for additional earnings for teaching summer school, coaching, tutoring, running the chess team, math team, physics olympics, etc, taking additional classes to continue education or obtain certification or additional degrees, etc, etc? All things that many teachers do, and make thousands of dollars per year for, in addition to their base salary.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
C&V: The median salary for an middle-school teacher in ISD191 is $40,156.
$40,156 PLUS 21WEEKS OF VACATION (minimum), AMAZING BENEFITS and protection from being fired for any reason by the most powerful union in the state.
Someone say it: Teachers are the most important person in your kid’s life besides parents.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
I was an education major for 2.5 years. I quit over the non-teaching elements. I had one too many classes about state requirements, certifications, paperwork, etc. Oh, and the whole union thing…I never could get on board with that, especially after a summer job that required me to be in a union. I saw too many teachers during my time in classrooms who just checked the right administrative boxes and coasted. That didn’t interest me at all.
I never had a problem with the salary. Entry level teacher salaries are comparable with many other entry level salaries for liberal arts careers (I realize there are differences in school districts and in teachers of various subjects, but I was a history major so that’s my perspective). Teachers’ salaries after 20 years are also good and comparable to other liberal arts professions after that amount of time, and the benefits are outstanding.
My entry level position in the private sector had a salary that was the equivalent of a teacher’s entry level position. That said, I make far more now than I would be making as a teacher right now. It’s nice to be able to negotiate my own salary.
As for teacher pay, if it’s so horrible, I’m not sure why I had so many teacher friends who worked for years to get positions, serving as substitute teachers for years while trying to get full-time positions. Salary is about supply and demand, and right now there are plenty of young college graduates looking for work as teachers, especially in the liberal arts. There’s no reason (other than charitable goodwill?) for any organization to pay someone more money than A.) the organization is legally required to and B.) the employee is willing to work for. I realize that’s not a popular sentiment with some people, but that’s how it works and as long as it’s a livable wage, I’m okay with that.
I want my kids’ teachers to feel valued and I want the good teachers to be paid well so we don’t lose them (and yes, “well” means more than $40,000 in my book). I just don’t want unions dictating that teachers be paid a given amount based on how long they’ve been occupying a given classroom.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
You can check out ISD 191 salaries here: http://extra.twincities.com/car/schlsalaries/default.aspx
There are over 300 employees (admin and teachers) that make over $70,000 a year – or in teacher time: 33 weeks.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
NWRG, in many cases admins work year round.
April 18th, 2012 at 4:00 pm
Bill,
True, but next time you drive by a school on a sunny summer afternoon, count the number of cars in the parking lot. The school by where I used to live was nearly always empty in the summer.
April 18th, 2012 at 4:17 pm
Um, if you are currently making more money in the private sector than you would if you were a teacher with the equivalent experience…how is this evidence that teaching pays great again? I think that’s the point — teachers put up with a lot of nonsense and the good ones, at least, definitely have other, more lucrative options.
You can make it easier to fire bad teachers (which is needed), but I don’t see how that’s going to drive down teachers’ paychecks. Especially when good jobs become more plentiful in the private sector again, which is already starting to happen.
April 18th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
My parents were teachers; both of them. I remember being rather poor when I was a kid. I do not recall them complaining about their jobs. They worked their asses off, getting up at ~5am to do school work, then rushing to the school just after 6.
My father, for example, would come home at about 5:30, get in a 20 minute nap, have dinner, and work on the next day’s lesson plans. They did this in crowded classrooms to disrespectful kids, while spending their own money on supplies, all while everybody in the world armchair-quarterbacked their jobs.
My mom was told, by the very same administrator, to make sure the kids learned all that they were supposed to by year’s end, but also to “not dare fail any of them, no matter what.”
My father was called on more than one occasion by college professors telling him to “back off” on his curriculum, because kids graduating from his economics courses were making other college students look stupid. (Seriously, this happened.)
Both them continuously updated their education. They worked every single day to be the best they could be at their jobs, despite the aforementioned pressure and comments like we see here. They are both smart people; very smart people. Neither “settled” for education as a career path. They chose it. They felt it was something noble. Something important.
They were also instrumental in trying to rid the district of bad teachers. They stuck their necks out and railed against their own union/district to push out dead-weight that was stuck there just because of idiotic tenure rules. I remember the phone calls about that, too.
Recently, one of my father’s former students retired from a prestigious economics career. Her local paper did a write-up on her. When asked about her keys to success, she singled out my father by name. Somebody sent him a copy of the article. He’s pretty proud. Stuff like this? That’s why he did it.
Both my parents are retired now. In case you’re wondering, they’re not living the high-life on the teachers’ pension. Despite (wisely) socking away extra coin on ancillary IRAs, they live check-to-check, sometimes wondering if they can get groceries. Maybe some of you will find satisfaction in that, I don’t know.
My neighbor teaches elementary; the another neighbor a middle school science teacher. Both come home gassed at the end of the day, carrying an armload of work that has to get done before the next day. No thanks.
Throughout this thread, I have been alluding (obviously unsuccessfully) to see if anybody had any first-hand knowledge about what teaching was actually like. There’s pretty much been some arithmetic, most of it kind of flawed.
I tried teaching for a while. Sure, it was designing and delivering computer curriculum at a private tech college, but even that was a difficult.
So, Bill, maybe you’re right: Perhaps all the teachers that you’ve had contact with are whiney, do-nothings. I’m with you in hating them; I know I have encountered quite a few in my life.
And, maybe you’re correct in that smart people shouldn’t go into to teaching.
But then where does that leave us? And, if the smart people avoid it for all the right reasons, then how do we get those smart people to become teachers? Pay them more? Wait, we’re all opposed to that, too.
And, again, have any of us really seen what the job is like? It’s pretty easy for us to fold our arms and go “Humph, bunch of fucking whiney slackers!”
Maybe sit down over a beer with a teacher and…
April 18th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
As far as I can tell going through the salaries listed at the link NWRG shared, all 30 people making over $100,000 are administrators. However, starting with the person making $99,595, most of the rest appear to be teachers. There are a few administrative employees in there as well, but there are many teachers. In fact, you’ll notice that 106 employees make $82,996. All but one of them has 20+ years experience (one has 15 years) and all but one has a MA degree + 60 credits (one has a Ph.D).
Is there anyone who would argue that a salary of $82,996 + the previously mentioned benefits package that puts the vast majority of the private sector to shame is not enough? There are many, many other teachers with MA’s who are making over $70,000. The highest-paid individual with a BA is at $73,589, though he has a BA + 60 credits.
What’s a bit appalling to me is that the highest-paid individual who has just a BA with no additional credits is paid $43,952 on 19 years’ experience. Now, I’m sure many of the teachers with a BA + 15 or 30 or 60 credits have accumulated those credits through ongoing education that’s mandatory for teachers since there aren’t many teachers who have just a BA. But I’m guessing many of these teachers are accumulating additional credits simply for the higher pay. Have they learned anything through those extra credits that has made them better teachers? Perhaps. But I’d venture to say that credits alone mean little. It’s entirely possible for a teacher to become better through classroom experience rather than taking credits. It’s also possible for a teacher to take a bunch of credits and learn nothing about classroom management, teaching their subject matter, etc.
Going through the list ranked by salary, it takes until $41,857 to get to everyone else who has just a BA.
There are a number of people in the mid-$30,000 range for salaries, but almost all of them have <5 years experience. Take a look at the numbers. Almost everyone in District 191 who has more than 5 years experience is making over $40,000, with many, many teachers well over that.
I have a major problem with paying people simply because of the degree they hold (or the number of years they've worked). It's one thing to require a degree for a position that demands it. But with school districts, you're paid based on the degree you've obtained and the tenure you have with the district. Earn a degree, get a pay raise. This is total bullshit.
April 18th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Jorn, I appreciate your information and perspective.
I dont mean to question your parents or their ability and desire to teach. As I noted, I think there are some teachers who are worth far more than they make.
I do wonder where they were teaching? Given your information about income and pensions, it sounds as though they were possibly teaching at a small private school? Certainly a household with two career teachers would expect an income today in excess of $100,000 easily, and likely approaching $150,000 (combined). While this may not be living in the lap of luxury, its far from paycheck to paycheck. I dont know offhand what the pensions would amount to, but it would also be substantial. Far more than most people will have upon retirement. I wonder if your parents are not just frugal and you possibly dont see their whole financial picture?
I do have some perspective on teaching and what teachers make. One of my college roomates was a teacher and is now a college professor in Colorado. Another of my college roomates teaches english to middle schoolers in Iowa. I dont remember the number, but he told me at one time how much of a raise he recd for becoming national board certified, and another time what his raise was when he completed his masters degree. He is now working on his doctorate. Another of my college roomates is a history teacher in Iowa. He does not have an advanced degree or national board certification (I hope those are the right words). He does coach, and he left a job as a corporate trainer to become a teacher. I would guess he is a very good teacher, and now he travels considerably every summer. I have another friend who was a teacher and did not like it, so he left to go into the private sector. He is successful, has three kids, and his wife is a stay at home mom, which probably would not have been possible had he kept teaching.
I would like to thank you to your parents for their dedication and effort. I hope my son has many teachers who have that level of care and drive. Sadly I think it is often the exception rather than the rule.
April 18th, 2012 at 6:46 pm
So, Bill and others, in your world what is a reasonable median salary for a middle school teacher?
April 18th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Bad teachers are overpaid. Good ones are underpaid. Sometimes, separating the former from the latter is easy; sometimes it’s hard. Unfortunately, the time+credit formula (the equivalent of an old-line industrial union) works against even making the attempt. And basing layoffs on seniority alone is equally foolish.
I’m not saying it’s always easy to evaluate teacher performance. But we can’t even try, thanks to “solidarity forever.”
And I have a kiddo who isn’t yet old enough to go to school. I live in 191, and there’s no way that she’s going to one of its schools.
April 18th, 2012 at 7:23 pm
J, while we do not live in 191, we are in 196, our 2 kids received a great education from public schools. Both of them have become confident, independent, successful members of society. Ones a senior director at a multinational ad agency, the other is in law school after several years as a nationally known advocate against domestic abuse. If your kids have a good work (study) ethic, are reasonably intelligent, and apply themselves, they will excel in public schools. Private schools trouble me a bit.
April 18th, 2012 at 7:29 pm
I hate so much about the comments in this thread, but mostly the number of times I was compelled to click the little green thumb on a Lefty comment.
Responding to individuals would raise my blood pressure, and my OB would frown on that, so I’ll just have my say. I have never once complained that I am underpaid. I am paid for 10 months out of the year, not 12 like everyone seems to think. I am paid for a 7 hour day. I do not think I have ever worked a seven hour day at school, let alone the time and effort I spend outside of the building working on school things. I would happily track the number of hours I work from now o the end of the school year, if anyone cares to really know how much time a teacher actually works. I am not allowed to take vacation days during the school year, it is more work to call in sick than it is to stay home, and my insurance costs me premiums and high-deductibles just like everyone else. I teach full-time in the number 1 or 2 paying school district in the state. I have a master’s degree + some credits and a few years of experience. I do not make 75K.
On a daily basis I am bombarded with angry parents encouraging their children to cheat on tests for the A, students who swear AT me better than Bill could, hundreds and perhaps upwards of a 1000 dollars of my own money spent on supplies and classroom library books ($250 of which is tax-deductible).
In my school approximately 79% of the students receive free or reduced lunch, which is a very high poverty marker. 50% of the students in my school fail their standardized tests. 62% of the students in my school speak a language other than English at home and as their first language. I am judged on whether or not my students pass their tests, despite the fact that my students come to me reading at a kindergarten or first grade level. Students openly attack each other and adults on a daily basis, both verbally and physically.
At the end of the school day today, after a long day of standardized testing, one of my students came up to me and said “Mrs. DM, that strategy we learned on Monday really helped, I think I may have actually passed my MCA this time.”
*That* is why I am a teacher. And I’m a damn good one who easily deserves the money I am paid.
April 18th, 2012 at 7:44 pm
dm is a classic example why I support our public school teachers. She is NOT PAID ENOUGH!! Teachers like dm are why my kids are doing well in our society. We all benefit from their efforts. Kudos to you, dm, we all owe you a great debt and I’ll buy you a beer anytime!
April 18th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
C&V, why do private schools trouble you?
Perhaps DM deserves more pay–but again, outstanding teachers (however we define the term) get paid the same as slackers, bumblers, etc. That’s just one problem facing public schools.
April 18th, 2012 at 8:23 pm
J, private schools smack of elitism/classism, IMO. Privilege has it’s price. Flame away – that’s the way I think.
April 18th, 2012 at 8:33 pm
To be clear, I was not saying a deserved more pay, merely stating I deserve and earn what I DO make and am not overpaid.
I was also answering the question of “why” someone would be a teacher.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
C and V, ever hear of, oh, Christo Rey Jesuit High School (Minneapolis), which *exclusively* serves low-income families? (In other words, if you make too much money, your kid *can’t* get in.). Oh sure, there are the Blakes of the world of private schooling, but they’re certainly not the only ones.
If you want to talk about exclusivity, then public schools are where it’s at, since attendance at one of those is usually base on where a person can afford to buy a house or rent.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Cristo Rey is awesome! They place their students in an office environment one day each week. I was a supervisor for one of their students for a year and a half or so and made numerous visits to the school. Very cool to see what they’re doing there.
I’m not an advocate of any particular form of education. Maybe I will be when my kids are older and I’ve had more experiences with them and friends’ kids. My wife is a product of the public education system through high school and a private university. I’m a product of home school (insert stereotype here…) through high school and a public university. We’re open to pretty much anything for our kids. I do find nontraditional education models very intriguing.
Regarding the whole point between J and C&V over whether our kids would do well in 191 or 196 or any other public school district, I don’t have any doubt that J’s kids and mine would do just fine in 191. But I think my kids would do well anywhere because I think I’ll be a pretty involved parent. That said, I want a school where my kids are setup to succeed at school rather than being forced to fall back on their time at home to fill a bunch of gaps.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
Thank you dm. I come from a family of teachers. My Mother and two siblings taught many years and have expressed your exact words.
All four of my children graduated from district 191. I was involved in strategic planning and on other district 191 committees. I have been on city committees. Now I sit on the sidelines as a taxpayer shaking my head. I see crap going on within the school district that has NO direct bearing on the education of students. I see a school board that has been politically involved with the city of Burnsville. They call it “partnering”. I call it BS. I see both my school taxes and city taxes paying for the Mayor’s HOC projects. So whenever the school board OR the city council come up with “ideas” that affect my taxes and have nothing to do with direct services OR reduce services….. that’s when I speak out.
April 19th, 2012 at 7:54 am
“J, private schools smack of elitism/classism, IMO.”
I would strongly disagree. I went to public Kindergarten, Private school grades 1-8 and public high school. In our neighborhood there was a great number of us who went to private school and no one was rich. My mom worked outside the home and my dad worked two jobs. It was and still is a very blue collar neighborhood. Our families all felt it was important for us to be at that particular school. At the same time our parents helped coach baseball and softball teams, hockey teams etc.
The education you get whether it be public or private depends a lot on parental involvement.
April 19th, 2012 at 8:21 am
“The education you get whether it be public or private depends a lot on parental involvement.” I fully agree, dsw.
The problem is not the kids in private schools; their parents obviously are involved in their education. In fact, it’s close to 100% parental involvement at a private school. So what does society do with the kids who are just barely in school because their parents are aren’t involved in their lives, let alone the education? If we, as a society, split on this have/have not paradigm we’ll degrade further along class lines.
Yes, you can be an economically struggling household and still send your kids to private school for religious reasons. I don’t worry about that as much as those who do so for socioeconomic reason; or those that think anything involving public/government funding is a waste and inherently subpar. It’s our society (government) we undermining by our lack of support. We end up with the society (government) we deserve. I’m willing to fight for a better society… not undermine it. Just my 2-cents.
April 19th, 2012 at 10:06 am
I enjoy CV’s statement that DM is “NOT PAID ENOUGH” considering DM did not state what her salary is.
I think teachers do deal with a lot of “angry customers” and other annoyances. So do people in most other professions. That alone doesn’t justify salary.
I believe DM is a great teacher, and if a fair appraisal system was in place, she would be graded and rewarded accordingly. The problem is that there are too many factors (e.g. CV’s emotions, outdated laws, THE UNION) that prevent good teachers from receiving fair pay and bad teachers getting ousted.
April 19th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
NWRG, there’s little emotion involved in this discussion on my part. Really! It’s just a firm belief. You may not see that way but I think my point of view is as rational as the next guy. Conservative rationale often is regressive in my mind. I’d rather be progressive – Progress is a good thing.
April 19th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
There are a number of parents who prefer private schools or homeschooling because they believe that the public school option to them is a poor fit for their child. And who are we go argue, against the people who know the children the best? Besides, public institutions, being public, operate with lots of strings (federal laws, state laws, union requirements) affecting personnel, pedagogy, curriculum, scheduling, etc.
April 19th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Letter to the Editor in Thisweek about the topic: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Thisweeklivecom/~3/ZNV9y0H7g3w/
April 19th, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Two items on the subject of four-day weeks:
St. Louis Today:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/missouri-schools-test-four-day-week/article_08871537-65a6-5251-be63-66836a4c6aa5.html
Excerpt:
“More than 100 school districts nationwide have turned to a shorter school week to avoid eliminating programs and teachers, according to the U.S. Department of Education. And the districts are reporting benefits that go beyond cost savings. Students are more attentive, less tired, and less likely to stay home, the districts report. Teachers are also less likely to be absent.”
Two university researchers look at it:
http://www.aefpweb.org/sites/default/files/webform/4_Day_School_Week_02_20_12_v2.pdf
From the abstract: “Our results suggest that student academic achievement has not been hurt by the change in schedule. Instead, the evidence indicates that the adoption a four-day school week shares a positive and often statistically significant relationship with performance in both reading and mathematics ….”
April 19th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
I wasn’t going to chim in today since I was so pissed off at Clegg last night but I wanted to respond to a couple of comments made regarding my posting yesteday about the effects of cuts on bus drivers and the meeting from last night. Yes a new bus company will likely win the contract and yes many of the current drivers will get hired but why do you think they won the contract? Any guess? It’s simple they were able to bid it lower because the drivers will be hired at a much lower overall pay rate. How would you lefty like it if you put in 13 years and then had to reapply for the same job at much less pay. My bitch isn’t with the majority of teachers most are great and should be paid what they make or more, there are some dog teachers and they shouldn’t be protected by the union it’s not right for the kids. With that said my main beef is with Clegg and his staff, it’s blotted, over paid, over staffed and unnecessary. As an elitest supervisor he stood up there last night selling his package of cuts and didn’t take one dime out of his administration, not one. Nearly $450,000 for two full time people to manage his web site are you kidding me! How many teachers could that hire. $250,000 payout to cover up his sexual harrassment of a co worker. As long as you have this school board protecting this loser of a Superintendent the teachers, non adminstration workers and especially the kids will get shafted. Cut the administration staff and wages by 10% each of the next two years have them put some skin in this game of balancing a budget. As long as these cuts were equally shared to balance the budget I wouldn’t be so ticked off other than his leadership.
April 19th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
I have had this happen to me Tom M. I have been a part of three distinct downsizing situations in my career in which I had to reapply for my job. Each time I was retained, and in one instance I took a pay cut. That is when I found a better job outside of that company for better pay than I had been making prior.
You make your own bed, Tom M. You seem resigned that your spouse has only one option when there are hundreds of jobs out there for her to go out and get.
Also, for someone who is so bitter about this leader, why would you want him in control of your wife’s future going forward anyway even if she does get one of the coveted lower paying bus driving jobs?
April 19th, 2012 at 3:43 pm
If you would like to know the salary of any public teacher, you can look here:
http://extra.twincities.com/car/schlsalaries/default.aspx
as long as you know the teacher by name. FWIW though, my salary for last year is listed as 9,608. I assure you, unless I was independently wealthy, I would not teach for that yearly salary. So it’s not always right, but it usually is.
April 19th, 2012 at 5:45 pm
You make a good point lefty there’s far better and more important jobs out there than making sure our kids get to and get home from school safely. I guess my point of having equal skin in the game went right over your head I’ll try to make my point in more simplier terms next time. Glad you found a better job in this robust economy.
April 19th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
This article from the Shakopee Valley News points out a very serious problem that Burnsville school district #191 has…….. The increase loss of students to open enrollment…….And you wonder why?……… Here’s the link:
http://www.shakopeenews.com/news/schools/burnsville-eagan-savage-fights-to-keep-students/article_9c0ab8f7-25d3-58ab-9874-bfd58cb726a9.html
April 19th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
As noted above, we are one of the 191 families that has gone outside the district. Sadly we were not able to make open enrollment work, so we will figure out how to pay for private school for a year.
April 19th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
More from the Savage Pacer: http://www.savagepacer.com/news/parents-skeptical-of-plan-for-shortened-school-year/article_d03e8111-2efc-5c1a-a196-b71dac630ec7.html
April 19th, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Chad, I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t know what your situation is but considering the state of district 191 you should be able to exercise you right to utilize open enrollment…if not, maybe Minnesota Open Enrollment Laws NEED to be changed.
April 19th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Tom M
Nowhere do you even come close to showing that a lower cost company does not get kids to and from school safely. I highly doubt your spouse is the only bus driver in history capable of that feat. I understood your attempt at a point, but it was to silly to even comment on until just now.
I am sorry your view on life is too soured by your bitterness.
lefty
April 19th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Tom M. do you have confirmation that this was the case? You might want to watch what you’re saying — libel accusations would wreck your life a hell of a lot more than some little bus company blip.
April 19th, 2012 at 8:04 pm
Lefty……. Stay on task!!!!! Screw your 1800th Comment!!!!!
April 19th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Lefty….. I apologize it’s your 1516 comment that should be screwed. But you’ll probably reach comment 1800 by tomorrow night if you try hard enough. Maybe you will have a slower day at work to accomplish this task.
April 19th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Thanks Will,
Yeah, I blew by 1500 and nobody even noticed.
April 19th, 2012 at 8:40 pm
After 1000 you only get recognized every 1000. Lefty only gets recognized never.
April 19th, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Bill……………… I love you!!:)
April 19th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Lefty, you’re such a spoilsport.:)
April 19th, 2012 at 10:40 pm
If 191 is losing students, maybe it needs to cut costs. The bureaucratic model of public schooling (heavy regulations, union contracts) coupled with a reluctance to close buildings (parental pressure) makes that a difficult task.
April 20th, 2012 at 9:00 am
Will,
I am sorry that I failed you by not commenting on you being gay for Bill.
I hope this helps.
lefty
April 21st, 2012 at 12:23 am
Why wasn’t there all this discussion when the proposal for a four-day or otherwise reduced schedule was first aired in the press nearly two months ago?
Not that the discussion isn’t useful now. But this has been out there for a WHILE, and even longer if you’re an employee in the district.
April 21st, 2012 at 12:24 pm
In 2010/11 1134 school age children living in ISD 191 moved outside of the district to attend school. My question for anyone is why would any couple with school age kids or soon to be school age kids want to even live in Burnsville, if given the choice. There is a reason these parents are choosing to have their kids attend school outside the district. But that reason is only discussed quietly amongst the few. As a city crumbles so does it’s infastructure including schools.
Maybe lefty has the answer to this question?
April 21st, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Tom, I am not sure if I understand your question, but we live here because we moved here before we had a child, and before we understood how much one school differs from another. Now, as we owe far more on our house than it is worth, we are stuck here for the time being.
April 21st, 2012 at 3:02 pm
There are obviously problems all around with this education system as is. There are teachers who make too much money and/or are held onto even after they’re known to be subpar, which is a side effect of the union in its current state. However, I’ve seen what happens when there is no union to protect teachers. Then you get pay ranges in 20′s, teachers who need two jobs to put food on the table, and a lack of quality educators because there’s no light at the end of the tunnel financially, so they go off and find other jobs. So what’s the solution? A restructuring of the current union and an administrative salary cap may be some steps in the right direction. I don’t know, however; there are so many apparent problems involved here that there’s no simple solution.
April 21st, 2012 at 5:52 pm
Tom, are you saying that Burnsville (the city, not the district) is in worse shape the other municipalities in the south metro? I have no opinion on the matter.
April 21st, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Tom M,
I am not sure why you think I can tell you why people would raise their family in Burnsville since I am not from there.
I am less than 2 months away from being able to say that I have two children that were the beneficiaries of a great education in Eagan public schools. One is finishing up her second year of college, and the other starts that chapter in the fall. I think they were both prepared well for that chapter.
Last I looked, Eagan does not have a clown for a mayor, a clown car full of city council members and it does not make horrible horrible decisions about how to spend taxpayer money. We have a top of the line police force, very little crime and about the only thing we lack is a decent restaurant. At least I can drive to Burnsville to the Thai Curry House for a good meal.
So keep voting for bankrupt Dan, Looney Tune Krautz and the rest of that band of idiots and you can plan for more of the same going forward. Until there is a change there, I would suggest your comment about why anyone would want to raise kids in Burnsville is sadly spot on.
lefty
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:58 pm
State Agency says ISD 191 board and Superintendent erred by redacting parts of severance deal any bets are how they will respond to this report?????? Will the entire report come out unredacted? Im bettin they will simply ignore the report because that’s what corrupt government agencies do.
If these clowns think we are going to let this go they have another thing coming.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:20 am
http://www.savagepacer.com/news/district-bus-company-change-could-save/article_5eeeac6c-6cde-5e99-839d-fa791d04b120.html
April 30th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
“While Durham’s bid came in around $500,000 less than First Student’s, that doesn’t exactly translate to the amount of money the district will save, as there are a number of variances that go into transportation expenses that can’t be determined ahead of time.”
An “Upstart” company…….. And Burnsville #191 is the one and only school district in Minnesota to be their FIRST customer? “Durham’s vice president of sales Rick Klaus said the current CEO also worked at Ryder when it served Burnsville, and said he and Durham’s chief financial officer also worked at First Student.” This school district is really grasping. If I were a parent of a current student within the district, I would keep the car warmed up in the garage to transport them to school.
May 1st, 2012 at 8:14 am
“An “Upstart” company”
The article said they are operating in 350 school districts and 30+ states, I wouldn’t call that an upstart company.
May 1st, 2012 at 8:35 am
Will, I generally agree with you but I think you’re stretching here. As dsw noted, this isn’t an “upstart”. As rare as it is, it sounds to me like a pretty good choice by the district.
May 1st, 2012 at 9:16 am
Durham’s site isn’t coming up right now, but this is from their Wikipedia description:
I think any claim of them being an upstart company has been laid to rest. Additionally, it makes sense to me that the largest company in the business would start to lose business to others who are able to find a way to provide the same services at a reduced cost. Of course, it would be interesting to know how they’re able to bring their costs down by that much over First Student (lower employee benefits, cheaper bus fleet, less overhead, etc.), but at the end of the day the school board is tasked with using our resources as efficiently as possible and as MSPD said, this appears to be the right move.
May 1st, 2012 at 9:20 am
Perhaps they’re simply going to run at a loss to ISD191 and hope they can make the money back in the long term or by convincing other districts to adopt them instead of their current bus company.
May 1st, 2012 at 7:33 pm
dsw and Joey, believe it or not, this is considered a “start up” business within the state of Minnesota. The individuals that are attached to this company are known within the school district and can put a positive spin on Durham. Bill, maybe Durham School Services will take a loss on this contract but how many “solutions” such as this will ISD191 school board embrace that could potentially cause additional problems for students and parents within the district? When ever a school district backs itself into a financial corner it starts to grasp at any or all “solutions” such as this, that can save money at the expense of its students.
May 2nd, 2012 at 10:08 am
They are already providing services outstate via acquisitions. They are not entirely new to Minnesota. I still think you are grasping at straws here.
May 5th, 2012 at 2:33 am
http://sunthisweek.com/2012/05/03/board-drops-shorter-school-calendar/
May 7th, 2012 at 8:31 pm
MSPD………….. “They are not entirely new to Minnesota”…………..???????????? …………………. Please explain.
May 8th, 2012 at 8:03 am
Just like I said…they have acquired bus companies in MN and are already serving school districts here. This may be their first direct entry into the market but they’re not an unknown entity nor a “startup”.
May 8th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
MSPD, my previous comment was based on the info from this link to the current US customers map from the Dunham website:
http://www.durhamschoolservices.com/OurCustomers/WhereWeAre/tabid/73/Default.aspx
May 8th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Maybe they run them as subsidiaries but they own MN district contracts. Anyway…point still is…not an upstart and not a bad decision by 191.
May 9th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
No more threat of a four-day school week: http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_20586101/burnsville-school-district-drops-proposed-four-day-school?source=rss
May 10th, 2012 at 1:16 am
old news; see may 5th post
May 10th, 2012 at 7:47 am
cripes give Bill a break he’s going to have 2 kids soon. Life is crazy for him right now.