School buses in the fall originally uploaded by Larry Darling
According to this article via WCCO, a bus driver was charged with assault after she slapped an unruly child after he hit another child and then kicked and spit on others after being separated from and then verbally warned several times to cease and desist.
From the article:
A Blue Earth Area School bus driver was charged with fifth-degree assault after allegedly slapping a child who had spit on, kicked, and made other children on the bus cry, according to a criminal complaint filed in Faribault County.
The complaint states that Jane Elizabeth Brooks, 72, of Blue Earth, Minn., had slapped the boy on the cheek, and said, “Well, maybe that’s what he needed,” when other riders questioned the action.
[...]
The complaint states that the boy had hit another smaller child on the head with a book bag, making the child cry. Brooks stopped the bus and moved the boy to a different seat – the one right behind the bus driver.
The boy then began to kick children across the aisle from him. When Brooks asked older riders to sit with the boy and babysit him, they declined. After contacting the school for assistance, Brooks wasn’t able to receive help, but was told to move other children away from the boy.
As Brooks was doing so, the boy spit on the children in the seat behind him. On the bus’ video, one of the children can be seen wiping the spittle off her face.
Brooks told the boy not to spit on other children and after he spit yet again, Brooks slapped him.
While the proper thing to do is to ignore the situation and have an Internet fund created for you which nets more than $650,000, is there really any reason any adult should have to put up with a child who behaves the way the one in the criminal complaint allegedly did? Wouldn’t the world be a much better place if parents and their guardians (permanent or temporary/in-transit) were able to stop the problem with a quick slap to the face?
How much you want to bet the problem stopped right then and there? Even though there were whispers from the other kids on the bus questioning whether that was necessary, do you think if the driver came back and wasn’t reprimanded for this course of action the kids would misbehave again? Would you press charges if your own little twerp acted like a complete and unadulterated jackass repeatedly and got slapped by an adult? Would you bring the little twerp home and slap him on the other cheek like I would? Whatever you have to say about this one, go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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October 4th, 2012 at 8:19 am
First of all, this entire response is predicated on the idea that the child doesn’t have some special needs. Different children need different responses.
Second, you just can’t hit a kid, even a kid who’s being a jackass. To be fair, teachers (and especially special education teachers) get training in how to deal with students who become dangers to themselves and others. You can hold a child, but you can’t strike a child. I’m not sure what kind of training bus drivers get.
That said, based on what I’ve read, I certainly wouldn’t press charges as the parent. I would expect the bus company/school district to take appropriate disciplinary action against their employee, like maybe an administrative leave of absence and reassignment. But, again, as a parent, I wouldn’t press for these things. I’d be mostly worried about my child’s behavior and concentrate on dealing with that. For my child, there would be some apologies in order, both to the bus driver and the other children on the bus.
October 4th, 2012 at 8:31 am
I don’t know if the city/county/district has a choice in how to handle this as there are probably policies in place. I can not imagine that it’s a good idea to be humiliating children in front of their peers, but I also don’t think it is a good idea for random children to be spitting on other kids. Body fluid transfers can be very dangerous and once the child escalated to that action, I can see the bus driver needed to escalate as well.
I wouldn’t like someone else physically punishing my child right off the bat, but if my kid was being a complete jerk, I could live with it. Of course, my kids would never have done anything like that. Not my little angels.
October 4th, 2012 at 8:41 am
While it is clearly a bad decision for this woman to hit a child, the tough question is what should she have done. It seems as if she tried to call for help and that failed. She tried to get presumably older kids to help and they refused (which indicates that this kid was probably a bothersome little fucker) and it is not like she could have kicked a 6 year old off the bus. I suppose the only thing left was to put up with it and get the kid home and tell his mother he is not allowed on the bus any longer.
I saw the “mother” interviewed this morning on the news. What a winner there. She was barely apologetic of the fact she raised a jerk kid and was almost laughing about it while she pretended to be upset her kid got slapped. I am sure she’ll find a hack lawyer to get the school district to settle on an amount that will allow her to pay off her Pinto, or at least get a nice down payment on a used double wide. She came of as a bigger ass than her child does in the story.
October 4th, 2012 at 9:15 am
I believe in corporal punishment. I agree that it probably should not have been done in front of his peers, but he could have been taken off the bus and paddled. I think that’s always a better choice than slapping him across the face because you’re angry.
If my parents heard that I had gotten in trouble at school, the policy always was that I would get double when I got home. That’s our policy today. Most parents though are way to quick to stick up for their degenerate kids instead of understanding the side of the adult.
October 4th, 2012 at 9:32 am
The parent(s) should take the kid to the bus drivers house and make him apologize. Then they should drive him to the house of every single person on the bus and make him apologize. Beyond that, depending on the child additional discipline is probably also in order.
As to the bus driver, I don’t know what she could have done. I would prefer to see her have the ability to stop the bus, call the school, and make the child’s parent(s) come pick him up from wherever the bus was stopped and take him to school and right to the principals office. Sit there in the bus with the kids until the parent got there, regardless of how long it takes. If the other kids on the bus were inconvenienced by this then pressure would increase from other parents to correct the behavior. If the parent(s) were forced to shut off Jerry Springer and go to the bus and then the school, perhaps a real and meaningful message would be sent.
October 4th, 2012 at 9:33 am
I’m gonna lay this out there in its own post:
I would never have acted like this on the bus when I was a kid. Nor, for the most part, would any of my peers. We wouldn’t have done it in the school, or the playground, or pretty much anywhere else. The reason was because we knew an adult would have at least slapped us.
October 4th, 2012 at 9:57 am
Now, on to the story at hand…
This little fart was completely out of control. Based upon the recount of events, which I don’t see as being in dispute, the bus driver did all sorts of things to manage the situation. And, after all this, he got a SLAP? My first thought was, and still is, “That’s IT?”
Lefty: When you say
I’d agree that it was a bad decision based upon the environment we live in. But, I think that if anybody needed to be slapped, this is a clear case.
I agree one can’t. But, perhaps at some point, maybe one should.
I’m kind of tracking with Chad here. I have a son; he’s in 3rd grade. If this were my kid in the story, not only would this start with him apologizing to the bus driver and ALL the kids, I’d be apologizing to the bus driver, too. “I’m sorry that you were put into a situation where you felt your only recourse was to slap my child. Please be assured that we do not find any of this acceptable as parents, and are doing all in our power to ensure it never happens again.”
The kid is the story sounds so fucked up, I think therapy sounds like a very fine idea. Seriously.
October 4th, 2012 at 10:12 am
My dad went through training to be a school bus driver last year. The main thing he learned is that you never, ever, ever touch a child.
Parents can make choices as to how to discipline their kids, which may include spanking. That’s the parents’ choice, but another adult does not get to make that decision. You don’t hit other people’s kids. And I’d question slapping a kid across the face as ever being the correct way to discipline a child. Spanking is one thing, but in my mind slapping across the face isn’t appropriate.
October 4th, 2012 at 10:19 am
Never ok to slap a kid. Double never OK to slap someone elses kid. I had an experience with my kids where a friend slapped my kid when he did somethig completley stupid. You could even say he derved it and it was a instant reaction to something, but not OK. In that situation I asked by now ex-friend to leave and never initiated a conversation with him again.
Corporal punishment is a cop out that lowers the adult to the level of a bully kid. I was never ever spanked nor were my kids. With one excption and in hindsight it was my faliure as a parent not the kids.
That being said I do agree with the idea that you get in trouble at school you get it twice as bad at home! You don’t have to hit a kid to get your point across, but you do have be creative.
Moving the kid was a good idea. Putting him in a seat by himself would be good. And finally banning the little shit from the bus for the school year. Let the disfunctional mother figure out how to get the kid to school. It doesn’t sound like this kid is going to be punished at home.
Sounds like the school district failed the driver as well. She should know that she has the support to report the kid and never have to see it on her bus again.
October 4th, 2012 at 10:26 am
The bus driver appears to have exhausted every option, and made a bad decision as a result of desperation having received no considerable assistance from those they were supposed to contact. Who do I blame? I blame the brat’s parent/s. Take some accountability and raise your kid to be an asset to society. Maybe your child is acting out due to something at home, think about what might be causing this behavior.
Regarding penalizing the driver, I don’t see why it is needed on what I assume is the first offense. Had the driver been provided appropriate support and training they would have felt helpless and have resorted to striking back. However, the driver should be assigned to a new route so as to not come into contact with the bully so as to avoid those conflicts. Requiring the driver to attend specialized training seems appropriate. If the driver ever did this again, then more serious punishment seems warranted.
To those kids on the bus snickering at the driver for hitting the kid, WTF is wrong with you? That kid is bullying others on the bus, and I suspect if the boy had been bullying you that you would have saw the driver’s reaction as appropriate. When I was kid if someone was bullying me, I would have been very appreciative to anyone that stuck up for me. Having peers on the bus that declined to help the situation would make me think they support the bully’s actions. Is this how you feel? If not, step up to the plate and be someone that people look up to rather than another bump on the log.
To the school/bus service, I think there needs to be some type of system created to address students that are excessively behaving poorly. It may be stopping the bus as jorn suggests, or maybe it is a combination of stopping the bus and having an appropriate school employee pick up the kid. Support your employees by enabling them to “correctly” address these types of issues. If you feel you must administer punishment to the driver, I expect that you will also do so to the student for behaving this way in the first place. Make sure to send a social worker to the kid’s home to assess if there is something there that is causing this behavior and determine what can be done to correct the issue.
October 4th, 2012 at 10:45 am
I do not believe, in any way, that this kid was not fully conscious that in 2013 the bus driver had no recourse to curtail his actions. He knew he could do anything he wanted and simply did not care. He did not create the environment, but he sure as hell did react to it.
I agree that corporal punishment is a touchy subject, and that opinions about it will vary. I also agree that hitting essentially lowers one to that level.
But a 72 year old woman… 72!… was pushed so far, with a bus full of kids and one who had generally gone sociopathic, that she was left to slap him. And we’d all sit here and judge her response? I find it hard to believe that I am the only one in awe of her restraint.
If he had seriously hurt somebody, or caused such a distraction that the driver had driven the bus into the ditch and killed all the kids, would we still be sitting here and saying, “Well at least you didn’t touch him!”
Where is the line? This little fuck nozzle not only is a menace, and not only is a potential danger to all the people on the bus, he is a bully. The very bully we pretend as a society to be crying out against. And now we all sit here at the comfort of our computer keyboards, after-the-fact, and wonder if maybe slapping the little boy was out of line?
It takes a village… and the village really needs to have some serious introspection here.
October 4th, 2012 at 11:24 am
Not going to get into the slap thing or the corporal punishment thing.
But in general, our society would be in a better place if people were not afraid to speak up to children (or adults acting like children) and tell them they are out of place. People need to be called out. This needs to become more normal… we’re too conditioned to look the other way. It now seems like many parents are interested in defending their children instead of correcting their children. What kind of message does that send?
We all need courage to stand up to a kid or adult who is doing something, in public, that goes against decency. People may often react in anger or indignation, but they feel convicted even if they rebuke the conviction.
October 4th, 2012 at 11:44 am
When parents fail to do their job, everyone else pays.
October 4th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
I would like to thank jorn for bringing forth my new favorite term ever.
Fuck Nozzle.
I am so going to use that whenever I can find the right place!
October 4th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
I know, lefty. Fucknozzle has been a favorite of mine for a few years. I just can’t find anything that tops it.
My son, a few months back, slipped “douche-nozzle” into a sentence. I don’t know where he got it from, and we tried not to laugh. But, we later privately agreed (after correcting him, of course) that it was a most splendid phrase!
October 4th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
I was fascinated by that term as well. Not that I would use such language – at least not that you guys are aware of – !
October 4th, 2012 at 2:55 pm
I wrote a bunch, then I deleted it.
I hate this topic. There are no winners.
Physical punishment sucks. I want nothing to do with it. But so does raising a voice or any other punishment. With 3 kids 2 and under, I find myself constantly questioning myself regarding what proper discipline should look like.
For those of you without kids or exposure to kids, I’ll put it real simple for you: kids are little shits! You learn very quickly that there are two options: 1.) You can train and discipline your kid or 2.) Your kid can train and discipline you.
I was spanked as a kid and my wife was spanked as a kid. Neither of us feel we’ve been damaged because of it.
That said, I’ve been adamant throughout our 2.5 years as parents that spanking, slapping, etc. is not how I want to deal with my kids. I also don’t like raising my voice.
Instilling discipline without an occasional slap or raising of my voice is really freaking hard!! Maybe it’s because I’m doing something wrong. Maybe it’s because I have 3 kids 2 and under. Maybe it’s because my kids are crazier than others. Or maybe it’s because humans struggle with communicating well with each other, especially when they can barely talk.
So I’m inclined to forgive this bus driver. It’s easy to play backseat moralist from our couches and desks but come on, it sounds like this was a really abnormal situation and she hit the end of her rope. As long as the kid didn’t lose a tooth or wind up with a scar, I’m willing to move on.
Sorry, I guess I still wrote a bunch…
October 4th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Joey, voice of experience here. Take a breath and know that your kids just want to know what you expect from them. It’s your job to teach them that – they do want to please you, they just can’t guess how to do it. It’s a learning process for them to figure out which behavior is acceptable and which isn’t. Keep it low key and preemptive – guide them in advance rather than scolding them later.
October 5th, 2012 at 12:20 am
Sandy, I think expectations are only half the battle. You’re absolutely right, parents need to be clear about setting expectations. I don’t think it’s fair to scold a kid for knocking a glass off a table if you never told them the table was off-limits. Really, it’s probably not fair unless they’ve been told the table was off-limits within the last hour since they forget so quickly (at least they do at a younger age).
However, I think you’re wrong that kids just want to know what’s expected of them and are only seeking to please their parents. Kids will also push the boundaries of what’s expected of them as far as you’ll let them (and beyond). That’s not to say parental approval is never something they desire, but ultimately, there’s nothing more powerful to them than their own will. I think that’s ultimately true of all of us. We’re pretty selfish people.
Here’s an example of what I mean concerning their disregard for expectations that have been clearly set: my 2.5-year-old twins know that when they go to bed, they aren’t allowed to get out of their beds. We cover it every night when they go to bed. All I have to do is ask, “What are the rules?” and either one of them will give me a list: “No getting out of bed, no throwing my pillow, no turning on the light, no kicking the wall, no hitting the blinds, no doing anything fun…” (Yes, I just made the last one up.) They know the expectations that have been set for them. There’s no guessing about what’s expected of them and what behavior is acceptable.
But at least 3 out of every 4 nights, they still get out of bed and play. So the question is how do you deal with it? Again, I don’t think spanking is the right answer, but when you’ve doled out every other punishment you can think of, I understand why a parent at the end of their rope resorts to spanking just to see if it works when they feel that nothing else has.
I know parents who don’t think any discipline should be used. You remind the child of the rule, put them back to bed, and repeat. They will literally do this for an hour. I think that’s crazy. That’s a case of the kid training/disciplining the parent and I think that kid is in for a world of hurt if they grow up thinking that’s how the world works.
October 5th, 2012 at 8:57 am
Joey,
In our house, I just duct taped the kids to the bed. Now they see it as a security blanket of sorts. It’s also good prevention for child abduction. What would-be kidnapper is going to try, or be able to, negotiate 17 layers/50 feet of duct tape to grab a kid? Plus, none of the kids will ever need to worry about learning how to shave. Effective AND efficient.
Frankly, I think duct tape would work wonders for this bus kid. Except I would duct tape the kid to the front grill of the bus and involve spiders or snakes in some way. Problem solved.
I honestly can’t think of a single parenting challenge or problem that a little duct tape won’t solve.
MSPD
- Father of the Year, 2002 to current
October 5th, 2012 at 9:00 am
Nice warm up, MSPD. Now bring it home…
October 5th, 2012 at 9:34 am
Why not stop the bus, call the police and have him pick up the little brat? Sounds like he was endangering everybody’s safety by intentionally distracting the driver.
A ride in the back of the police car to the station, and having his parents pick him up there would be a better deterrent than a slap in the face.
Also bar him from taking the school bus for, say, a month. If this happens again – for a year. Again – for life :)
October 5th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Joey, you are right when you say that having expectations is only half the battle. Follow-through and reinforcement are completely necessary as well – I should have spent more time writing my post.
I do take issue with your statement, “However, I think you’re wrong that kids just want to know what’s expected of them and are only seeking to please their parents.” You have done a tiny bit of paraphrasing to change my meaning.
You sound like an excellent parent, BTW.
October 5th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Thanks Sandy, sorry if I took anything you said out of context. It wasn’t my intent.
And it’s a lot easier to sound like a good parent than to be one! :)
October 5th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Zapiens, on the surface your answer seems pretty good. Unfortunately, if the kid’s parents are lacking in parenting skills (as potentially seems the case), they might just decide to beat the crap out of the kid for causing them inconvenience, rather than reassessing their own parenting methods or getting some outside help. I don’t know what the answer is here, but it seems like an opportunity to help save a kid that’s on the wrong road – calling the police can set a precedent that the kid could become far too accustomed to.
October 6th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
I am not a mother, but I’m fairly certain I would be horrified if anyone hit my children, just as I would be horrified if my child acted like this on a bus. I’m curious why the driver wasn’t able to receive assistance with this child. At the very least, the parent should have been called to pick up their child (in my household, this was worse than death).
October 7th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
As a Bus Driver myself comment #22 is what we are taught to do no matter whether we could break it up or not. It is not the drivers place to use any force unless in fear of personal harm. Recently a fight took place between two elementary kids that in the past could have been easily handled by the bus driver but in todays legal environment you need to get the police involved. Ridiculas yes necessary yes, yes.
February 18th, 2013 at 7:03 am
[...] recently talked about corporal punishment after a bus driver slapped an unruly child on his route and some people defended him while the majority said he was out of line considering his job. Well, [...]