Skirmish At Hibernia 393 originally uploaded by Darryl Moran
Last week’s poll asked how you felt about this year’s winter season. The overwhelming majority of respondents said we definitely deserve this winter after the last few. While some are upset about it, they’re just insane and can safely be ignored by all. Yay for warm weather.
This week’s poll comes from this article in the Pioneer Press which covers a West St. Paul City Councilmember who is flying a Confederate in his backyard. Residents and fellow councilmembers alike are not happy about it and while nothing can really be done about it the councilmember’s response to the hoopla is that the flag is “cool”.
From the article:
West St. Paul City Council member Ed Hansen has a Confederate battle flag hanging off the back deck of his house and says “it’s cool.”
Others, including the city’s mayor, have a different opinion of the flag, which is visible off busy Butler Avenue and to visitors at nearby Thompson Park. Written on the flag is the word “redneck.”
[...]
“I’m not a racist, and I don’t think it’s racist,” he said. “People like to play the race card, though, when they don’t get their way.”
There is a simple poll question here: are Confederate flags “cool” or are they “racist”? However there are many other questions such as: do you think it’s appropriate for a city councilmember to fly a Confederate flag? If you were one of his constituents wold you be upset? If you were a neighbor of his would you ask him to take it down? Would you simply shake your head and think he’s a d-bag? Do you think he’d be more respectable if he admitted he was a bigot and wasn’t timid instead? Whatever you have to say about this one vote on the sidebar and then comment on below. After you do both of those things feel free to check out our expired polls in the archive or read through the previous posts about polls here.
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February 12th, 2012 at 7:29 am
They are a part of history but flying one now is NOT cool in my opinion. I would never vote for him and I think he’s just trying for some attention and publicity. Or maybe, like your poll allows, he’s just stupid.
February 12th, 2012 at 8:36 am
They are a part of history. A part of our very racist history. The “N” word used to be used frequently, it’s a part of linguistic history. It’s still racist and shouldn’t be used.I don’t understand why someone would want to fly a confederate flag. It is not a part of our culture, especially not one to brag about. We should not be allowed to proudly fly the flag symbolizing the fight to continue to oppress an entire race.
I would be very curious for the council member to explain exactly what isn’t racist about flying the confederate flag.
February 12th, 2012 at 8:37 am
Doesn’t so much bother me, It’s a part of American history, and I’m sure you’ll see your share in the southern end of this great country.
It was OK for the Dukes to fly one on the roof of the General Lee.
February 12th, 2012 at 8:47 am
See Woodz, I disagree, I don’t think it was ok. Just because something is done, doesn’t mean it’s ok.
February 12th, 2012 at 8:48 am
While I enjoyed the Dukes of Hazard, I would have put them firmly in the “Stupid” category.
February 12th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Yup, doesn’t seem right to me. What if I thought the design of a swastika was cool? Would it be ok to fly that flag in my yard?
February 12th, 2012 at 10:42 am
You’ll have a hard time finding anyone up north who thinks this is ok. The south, on the oher hand…they’ll tell you the war had virtually nothing to do with slavery. It was all about states’ rights. That’s what you learned in school too, right?
February 12th, 2012 at 10:55 am
Also, I voted stupid because I have a lot of family in the south who love their reel flags. While I think it’s fair to say anyone who flies the flag is displaying an exceptional case of ignorance, automatically labeling it racist doesn’t accurately reflect the rather complex nature of the flag, north-south relations, the Confederate War, etc.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:05 am
The swastika was a commonly used symbol on greeting cards and other things, nearly worldwide until Hitler totally corrupted its meaning forever. It is the oldest known cross symbol in the world, meaning literally, well being.
The Stars and Bars should only be in history books and museums now. Having a blatant in your face reminder of a terrible era of our past is wrong and improper. It is a free country still, although just barely. The disdain of his neighbors should eventually make him take it down.
February 12th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
While I think it’s completely within his rights to fly it on his property, I think it’s my right to call it gross and stupid.
February 12th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Perfect example of an Egocentric. The next question, will he be reelected?
February 12th, 2012 at 4:12 pm
If intelligence and great decision making were the hallmarks of being re-elected in the political arena, our legislatures would be overwhelmed with freshman senators/representatives.
Cheers
Irving
February 12th, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Considering that 10 out of 26 voters so far have voted “don’t care” and 1 voted “cool,” I’m curious why none of them have commented? I suspect it’s because there’s shame in acknowledging indifference on this.
February 12th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
Ok, I guess woodz expressed indifference in his comment. So 1 person so far. Any other takers?
February 12th, 2012 at 8:40 pm
I am glad that we live in a place where someone can be this stupid. That said, the confederate flag is not just about racism and it is a part our country’s history. A complex issue. I am pretty sure, however, that complex issues are not what this guy is about.
February 12th, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
February 12th, 2012 at 10:55 pm
Nobody has been offended by it that you know of, you mean.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:04 pm
And not to be combative, but I’ve yet to hear a cogent argument from any Southerner that I know vis a vis states rights that validates flying this flag 160 years after the Civil War was fought and lost by the South, let alone from some dudebro born and raised in Minnesota. And when I do, it’s usually some white dude who wants to outlaw abortion or abolish the IRS, causing me to almost sprain my optic nerves from rolling my eyes so hard.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:07 pm
All this wonderment over what was the cause of the Civil War could have been answered if they only bothered to write down why they seceded at the time. Oh, wait, they did, in the Declaration of Causes of Secession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html).
I guess you are correct, it was about States Rights. The right to keep slaves. And the right to force other states to return escaped slaves.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Thanks fehler. Funny how easy it can be when you just cite the facts.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Amen, fehler.
February 12th, 2012 at 11:27 pm
If it is just about states rights, I assume both black and white southerners fly the Confederate Flag regularly, right?
February 13th, 2012 at 1:21 am
When I see a Confederate flag in the back window if a pickup truck, I lower my eyes to their trailer hitch where, wouldn’t you know it, there is usually a pair of those rubber testicles bouncing away. I don’t care about either decoration because they both are placed with the same intent; to make me clutch my pearls. And it takes a lot more than that to get my pearls clutched these days. Voted don’t care.
February 13th, 2012 at 1:55 am
I live in West St. Paul. Ed Hansen is my council person, yet he is an embarrassment to the city.
Now what most people will think of when they hear or see West St. Paul is that we’re all like Ed Hansen.
When he ran for city council in 2010, his major points for voting for him were to eliminate welfare and Section 8. He didn’t want (his words) parasites in West St. Paul. Just taxpayers and homeowners.
Though he might also want to get a clue. I think Ed Hansen forgets that (last census) West St. Paul is about 87% white.
I’m white, yet not a homeowner. Also it’s not all non-white people in West St. Paul who are on government assistance of some kind. Medicare is a form of welfare.
Thanks Ed (for nothing). As he’ll probably not represent all of his constituents in his city district nor everyone else in West St. Paul either.
February 13th, 2012 at 1:59 am
Yikes, I left out a word.
Ed Hansen is NOT my council person, yet he is an embarrassment to the city.
February 13th, 2012 at 7:47 am
The “states rights” argument is an apologetic attempt to justify a rebellion that cost the livers 600,000 Americans, and it was over the “right” of one man to own another. The “states rights” arguments was created by the powers that be in the South in order to rally the poor white farmers and laborers to take up arms and prosecute a war. If they’d said this was just about slavery, most people didn’t own slaves. But the folks who did.. controlled the argument of the day and needed cannon fodder to fight for their right own other people.
Even if you have southern pride and believe that the Stars and Bars is a symbol of regional pride, today, like the swastika, you are making a statement when you fly it. There’s a reason it’s at the front of every KKK parade. Since it’s also become a symbol of the militia and folks who hate the government and on and on, and just note that I see just as many of them in rural Wisconsin, Minnesota and, they’re all over the UP in Michigan, not exactly areas with strong Southern sympathies or Confederate heritage. But they are places with lots of poverty and they are places where people like to find scapegoats for their \ poverty and low station.. and the feds and immigrants and minorities make great scapegoats. They always have.
I too come from a southern family. Although none of them would fly the Confederate flag they were almost all racist at one point in there lives. Slavery was killed only to be replaced by sharecropping and company stores. Segregation, civil rights battles.. we’re not talking about a part of the world with a great record of tolerance. My Dad used to say that when he was growing up in Texas, those Black people who sat in back of the bus, they were always smiling and cautious, unlike the uppity ones now who are trying to “wreck” everything. Not an uncommon sentiment among people of his generation in the South.
And today, things are getting much better in the South thanks to generations of integration and I believe sports and African Americans becoming successful if all walks of life.. but there’s always those who are adverse to change, who want go back to the good old days when “those” people were lower on the ladder than I am or when they were in their place and things were great, for white people. And when you fly the Stars and Bars today, like Ed Hansen you are saying “I support going back to when old times were not forgotton.” Only in Ed case I’m guessing it’s immigrants, his code word for Mexicans, that he’s more concerned about. The end result is the same.
Don’t want to be called a racist, don’t embrace the symbols of racism. Simple as that. But don’t think we’re so stupid as to believe that you had no idea what the it means. That makes you racist and stupid, which goes hand in hand so I guess it makes sense after all.
February 13th, 2012 at 8:44 am
I’ll throw this question into the mix (I voted “stupid” on the poll BTW):
Isn’t secession allowed in the constitution by any state that wants to do so regardless of the reason?
I remember Gov. Rick Perry of Texas talking about this about a year before he threw his hat into the ring.
I seem to recall some vague argument that the Union had no right to do this as it was unconstitutional but nobody raised the issue at the time.
February 13th, 2012 at 8:47 am
Not to say racism was strictly a southern problem, it was/is not. “Postcard From A Lynching” is a chilling piece of work. And now we have the brouhaha over the “It’s hard to see racism when you’re white” billboards. It is hard. And if we never stop to question our own ideals and actions, we will never see the racism that will always exist. “Yo is this racist” (http://yoisthisracist.com/) may offend, and is not professional, but a wonderful read and points out many of the unseen/unnoticed racist leanings of our society.
February 13th, 2012 at 9:17 am
Nurd: No. There is no article/amendment to the constitution that lists out the method for a state to leave the union. Texas’ constitution makes no claim of the right to secede, and it states “Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States…”
As for Rick Perry, he is an idiot.
The tenth amendment states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Some “Tenthers” have asserted that this gives the power to secede from the Union to the states. Good luck with that.
One thing to point out is the south seceded prior to the inauguration of Lincoln, not as a response to any specific legislation/executive order issued by his administration.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:30 am
aliecat, sank and fehler saved me alot of time. I have argued the states rights not slavery thing too many times. That all goes back to the post Reconstruction and early 20th century revisionist history of the War which more or less held sway till the late 60′s. Predictably it did a nice job of propping up Jim Crow laws , and also figured in, and figures in still today in the wonderful “culture wars”.
Much like the Kurt Bills questionnaire the answers allowed here are not satisfactory. The flag itself represents the Confederacy and has morphed today into a historical reverence for the Confederate cause, this can be a noble rememberance IMHO(so it has its place at Civil War re-enactments or maybe even at a Univ. of MIssissippi football game), or it can represent the extreme right wing and as such the flag is often flown by white supremacists and racists who believe in “states rights.”
I will vote “stupid” as that is what in this case it makes its owner out to be.
I do believe the stars and bars is used by groups and people who are racist. I also think it tends to be used by people who have an anti-federal government outlook. I grew up in Michigan and lived in Oregon and Minnesota. So Joey is right, the “lost cause” doesnt give me any warm feelings. Its over folks, and in this case the stronger and the right side won.
February 13th, 2012 at 11:15 am
Wow, every one of my comments on this post has at least one “dislike.” So this is what it feels like to be lefty!
February 13th, 2012 at 11:24 am
That person voted down 18 comments over the course of two minutes. If they continue to do so I will remove their ability to vote.
February 13th, 2012 at 11:25 am
I am mostly proud of my thumbs down, because that means that people care about what I write, and when people thumbs me down they are saying, “While your post was well written, lefty, and your point very well articulated, I just don’t agree with you at this time. Also, you are very good looking.”
It is hard to keep my ego in check with all that love.
February 13th, 2012 at 11:40 am
Lefty, I gave you a thumbs up for that, even though you’re probably the person who gave me a thumbs down. Jackass. ;)
February 13th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
That was from me! By proxy, I think I called you good looking. I really should have thought that through.
February 13th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
The Confederate flag is about “heritage.” Minnesota has a proud heritage of kicking the Confederacy’s butt.
Here are some facts about Minnesota’s Civil War heritage (from the Minnesota Historical Society webpage):
– Minnesota was the first state to respond to President Abraham Lincoln’s request for volunteer regiments that would fight to defend the Union.
– During the four years of the Civil War, Minnesota sent 25,000 men, or about half of the state’s eligible male population, to fight the Confederate Army.
– More than 100 black men from Minnesota enlisted in the Union Army, although the state’s black population totaled just 259 including men, women and children, according to the 1860 census.
– Minnesota soldiers fought in nearly every major battle from Bull Run to Atlanta. At the Battle of Gettysburg, the greatly outnumbered First Minnesota Regiment made a heroic charge and sustained massive casualties. Some historians believe their actions turned the tide of this battle, which was a major turning point in the war.
In Minnesota, a Confederate flag means “I’m a loser” in every possible sense, plus “I flunked Minnesota history.” Why would anyone brag about either one? Or vote for someone who did?
February 13th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
A great great uncle of mine was a sharpshooter at Gettysburg and other battles with the Minnesota volunteers. He had barely arrived from Norway when he answered President Lincoln’s call. He came home a sergeant to later become a state legislator, Judge and prosperous farmer. Jill’s comment is right on!
February 13th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
What pizza place does the racist own in Little Canada?
February 13th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Congrats to Joey on comment #700!
February 13th, 2012 at 2:36 pm
And congrats to you on 6,000. Now bring back the thumbs up/down for your posts for the love of pete.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:38 pm
I’m also pretty proud I got 3 thumbs down myself. Usually nothing I say provokes a reaction either way.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
Aliecat, hah. Nice.
February 13th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
I’d also like to point out to this Councilman that the southern states are some of the highest recipients of federal tax dollars earmarked for matching funds for state welfare in the country. I’d ask him to riddle me that, but I’m afraid I’d just be pissing in the wind on that point.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:13 pm
I prefer to think my down vote was due to my withering indictment of trailer-hitch balls.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:37 am
By the argument of those who think the Confederate flag is only a symbol of slavery, and should never be flown, we should retire our own stars and stripes as representative of the systematic segregation and genocide of the native population of the southern chunk of North America.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:40 am
Well, the councilman took the flag down, though apparently he still sees no problem with it. I can’t imagine he has a shot at reelection after his first term is up.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:42 am
By the way, you have to click through to that story and check out the picture of the guy with his flags (he also sports a “Don’t Treat On Me” flag).
February 14th, 2012 at 9:52 am
“…I can’t imagine he has a shot at reelection after his first term is up..”
Oh I don’t know about that, that part of the metro is Tea Bagger country.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:56 am
“Tea Bagger country?” I guess we know where you stand on the Tea Party then.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:59 am
I like some of the ideas that the Tea Party has. Unfortunately the people behind that work are not ideal and, in fact, generally go against my own personal beliefs about what “small government” really means.
February 14th, 2012 at 10:20 am
The NYT had a headline article on Sunday about some of the contradictions of some Tea Party type voters and how they and their families accept federal programs and payments. The article was written from Chisago County Minnesota. Its a good article regardless of which political side you are on.
February 14th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Well I’ll stop calling them “Tea Baggers” when they stop calling the Affordable Health Care Act “Obamacare”.
February 14th, 2012 at 10:56 am
Ah yes, the justification of name calling and sexual inuendo with the “but they did it first” argument. Grow up.
February 14th, 2012 at 11:00 am
What’s wrong with “Obamacare” as a moniker? It’s his hallmark legislation. It makes sense to me.
Either way, I don’t think responding to a term you consider derogatory with another derogatory term is helpful.
As for the Tea Party, they’re a mess, just like the Occupy movement. There’s no clear vision with either one and both will fizzle out (and already are). I also appreciate the dialogue both brought to our legislators. For all of their flaws, they got us talking about issues that need to be addressed. That’s saying more than a lot of our polished, politically correct politicians can say.
February 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am
1. It’s not “Obamacare”, it has a name and people should use it. Politicians who call it “Obamacare” are doing so in a derogatory manner and shouldn’t. They are supposed to be professional and thus they should act like it.
2. It did get us talking about what we needed to talk about and for that I am grateful. However, it also got us talking about things that have no business being discussed in politics in America and for that we’re much worse off than the direction the positive discussions have provided.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:09 pm
People rarely use the actual name of legislation. Examples:
* Obamacare = Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA)
* Bush tax cuts = Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA) & Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 (JGTRRA)
* Reaganomics = the economic policies promoted by the Ronald Reagan, also known as supply-side economics
Of course, there’s also Bush Doctrine, Reagan Doctrine, Carter Doctrine…all terms to summarize various foreign policies.
And that’s not to mention all of the legislation that’s named after senators and representatives who support it.
Regardless of whether you consider the term “Obamacare” to have negative connotations, it certainly isn’t unusual for anyone to use a term like that to describe a piece of legislation or a policy and I would hardly consider it inflammatory. Maybe I’m alone in that sentiment?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:18 pm
There’s a good article from Kaiser Health News on the branding problem of “Obamacare.” I thought these quotes a couple of Democratic pollsters were interesting:
The article goes on to say the Democrats missed the boat on branding the legislation so it was easily digestible for the public, leaving the door wide open for the term “Obamacare.”
I thought the Republican argument at the end of the article was interesting as well, saying that it’s disingenuous to call it an “Affordable Care Act” since, in his opinion, it’s not affordable.
Anyway, I suppose that’s enough deviation from the bars and stars discussion.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
“…What’s wrong with “Obamacare” as a moniker? It’s his hallmark legislation. It makes sense to me”
Because among other things, the term “Obamacare” is also used by the right to frame him as a socialist which he is not. Believe it or not this act is not the health care model of Europe or Canada.
“…Either way, I don’t think responding to a term you consider derogatory with another derogatory term is helpful”
Maybe so, but “Tea Bagger” is mild compared to what I’ve seen from the right in terms of how Obama gets hammered on. Do a Google image search on Obama and see what turns up.
“…There’s a good article from Kaiser Health News…”
A industry mouthpiece organization that used to be a a part of the Kaiser Permanente health care conglomerate is not the most objective source now is it?
Anyway having said all of that, I do agree that the Occupy and Tea Party movements are dead. I won’t miss either one.
February 14th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I’m aware that this is not the health care model of Europe or Canada (it’s arguably worse, but that’s for another debate). The term is being used to tie Obama to his hallmark legislation, which 55-60% of the country favors repealing. If you’re an opponent, you can say, “Obama’s Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” (a title that frames the legislation positively), or you can say “Obamacare” (or some other shortened term, perhaps?).
While you’re doing Google Images searches, do one on “George W. Bush.” Vitriol exists equally on both fringes. How mild my (or your) rhetoric is relative to that vitriol is irrelevant. But hey, if you want to go ahead and keep defending the term “Tea Baggers,” that’s your call.
As for the Kaiser article, the source wasn’t really relevant (though they were Democrats being quoted). The point is you aren’t going to find people calling it PPACA (puh-pack-uh?).
Generally speaking, whoever brands legislation in 3 syllables or less wins. If you can effectively brand legislation to make it look more favorable to your position or less favorable to your opponent’s, even better for the politician. I don’t find “Obamacare” to be any more out of line than “Reaganomics.” I don’t think I’d use either term if I were supporting Obama or Reagan, respectively, but I don’t find them offensive in the least.
February 14th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
“Ah yes, the justification of name calling and sexual inuendo with the “but they did it first” argument. Grow up.”
Lest we forget, Tea Partiers saddled themselves with the Tea Bagger moniker until some spoilsport let them in on the joke. Don’t blame me because they don’t know how to google until it was too late.
February 14th, 2012 at 9:38 pm
Aliecat: regarding the Tea Partiers, you beat me to it. They did call themselves the Tea Baggers first which is why it became such a joke.
As for the rest of the comments I agree most with fehler’s comment post #19 and Sank’s comment post #26. While the Confederate flag is a symbol of the past and is indeed in the history books, to fly that today to me, constitutes racism due to what the Civil War was fought about–the State’s right to have slaves.
I voted that it is racist, but I would have added stupid to that vote as well. The people that choose to fly these flags perhaps aren’t very well educated nor have much common sense. This symbol now stands to make the minorities afraid of those people who choose to fly that symbol with pride. And why shouldn’t they be? I can’t imagine any minority choosing to fly the Confederate flag because they have roots in the southern USA and it’s a source of pride for them.
Marty’s post comment #9 was dead on as well. The swastika was once a symbol of well being and because of Hitler it now is a symbol of hate against people. Now if you see it written on a wall, on a flag, where ever, it is seen as racist and the person that is displaying the symbol would more than likely be considered a Nazi and it invokes fear amongst those who were the targets of the Nazis. You see news stories like in St. Cloud where swastikas were “carved or scrawled more than a dozen swastikas and other racist images on campus walls, elevators and bathroom stalls” (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22885692/ns/us_news-life/t/swastikas-undermine-universitys-bid-heal/#.Tzsm8YEcNbg) Police can get involved, school officials worry about safety, parents are put on edge, anyone that was a target of the Nazi (especially the Jewish people) are on the lookout for being targets of the hate that follows the symbol of the swastikas.
Very good discussion everyone!
February 15th, 2012 at 7:27 am
Jen H: You may not be able to imagine it, but that doesn’t make it so.
http://newsone.com/nation/associatedpress4/black-student-defends-confederate-flag/
Isn’t assuming someone’s intent behind the use of a symbol a form of prejudice in itself? Different symbols mean different things to different people.Perhaps for some, this negative symbol of the past is being recycled and given a positive meaning, even soemthing as simple as pride in one’s region of the US. Or maybe for someone else it is intended as a symbol that they believe the federal government has stepped well beyond its authority over the sovereignty of the states. Symbols in and of themselves are neither good nor evil, they simply exist. It is the viewers of the symbols that give them their power. Want to rob a symbol of its negativity? Claim it and use it to spread a positive message. If a symbol is only as good as its worst use in history, again, please explain to me, why we continue to use our current flag as a symbol for the United States. It is important to note, that at one time, the government flying that flag also stood for and supported slavery.
February 15th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Because our country has changed. We fought a war to separate ourselves from that (arguable depending on your side of the M/D line). IMO the Confederate flag fell during that time and is thus forever held to the unevolved standards it had at the time.
February 15th, 2012 at 8:16 am
OK, what have we done to rectify the systematic segregation and genocide of the native population? Let them run casinos?
February 15th, 2012 at 8:19 am
I never said we didn’t have a long way to go!
February 15th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
Sui: No I do not believe that assuming someone’s intent about a symbol is a form of of prejudice. As a matter of fact when the majority of people agree that a symbol stands for something negative then it becomes what everyone associates with it. Take for instance the word gay. That word in and of itself used to mean to be happy, right (think in the 1970s and earlier)? Today, it makes for a classification of a group of people, homosexual people to be specific. And anyone that uses the word gay outside that, such as “that’s so gay” (referring to something being dumb) is considered unthoughtful and being discriminatory (the television PSA that promote not saying something is gay: http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com).
Hey, I’m all for trying to change people’s thoughts on what is and what is not bad, and taking the bad symbols and making them good…but there is way too much history behind something like the Confederate flag to try and make it a position symbol again.
“Want to rob a symbol of its negativity? Claim it and use it to spread a positive message.” Try the swastika Sui…if you can turn around people’s feelings on that then I will applaud you as will so many others. If did stand for well being– it would be nice for it to mean that again. I wish you the best of luck on that endeavor!
February 15th, 2012 at 7:26 pm
“Want to rob a symbol of its negativity? Claim it and use it to spread a positive message.”
You’re assuming a certain group would even want to take it back. In certain feminist circles, there’s often talk about taking back the word “cunt” as a symbol of power and to reduce it’s negative connotations. I think it’s a waste of time, as I know many women who find it such a vile word not worth taking back. I don’t want a man calling me a cunt, so why would I want other women calling me a cunt? Should the African-American community attempt to “take back” such a negative symbol to them in order for white people not to feel the icky backlash from flying the stars and bars? IMO, not if they don’t want to. It’s not a marginalized community’s responsibility to make the majority to feel good about their ignorance or insensitivity.
February 16th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Aliecat: Hasn’t a portion of the black community (read an interesting article recently that African-American isn’t favored by many) already taken back the bedreaded “N-word”? Referring to each other, especially thier friends, using this term, or one very similar? Jen H: Just because a majority of people agree on something, that makes it correct? No! That is why we are a republic and not a democracy. In some states, a majority of the people have declared they are against gay marriage. At one time, in this country, a majority of the people decided that segregating and slaughtering the native population was OK. At one time, in Germany, a majority of the people decided that the extermination of an entire race was acceptable. Prejudice is prejudice, no matter how many people are engaging in it. If you judge a person’s intent without talking to them, you are prejudging the situation, and thus prejudiced.
February 16th, 2012 at 7:42 am
sui g, the use of “nigga” vs. the “n-word” was explained to me in college as being two separate things to my group of friends. Whether that’s universally applied across the black community I have no idea.
February 16th, 2012 at 10:23 am
Jen H: Here is what I was looking for. Not the iconic swastika you asked for, but pretty damn close:
The pink triangle (German: Rosa Winkel) was one of the Nazi concentration camp badges, used to identify male prisoners who were sent there because of their homosexuality.[...]
Originally intended as a badge of shame, the pink triangle (often inverted from its Nazi usage) has been reclaimed as an international symbol of gay pride and the gay rights movement, and is second in popularity only to the rainbow flag.
February 16th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Sui G, maybe some have, but does that make you feel like you can go up to a person of color and call them the Big N?
February 16th, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Not my style. I don’t fly the stars and bars or swastika either. I just don’t jump to conclusions concerning the message they intend behind their symbol. I also think that people’s sensitivities are their own problem. The swastika keeps being raised as a horrible symbol that no one should display. That is our own western hyper sensitivity to the symbol talking. It doesn’t occur to us that this is an important symbol in certain eastern religions. By automatically declaring the symbol to be bad and invalid, we are saying that our own beliefs and sensitivities are more important than theirs. Not cool. In any event, the whole point is that usually people condemning others for bigotry, insensitivity, or intolerance are just as close minded and quick to jump to conclusions as those they condemn.
Maybe I’ll go buy a confederate flag and fly it upside down in protest of those who display it.
February 16th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Sui G: “I also think that people’s sensitivities are their own problem. The swastika keeps being raised as a horrible symbol that no one should display. That is our own western hyper sensitivity to the symbol talking.”
Really? My fiance’s recently deceased grandfather was a survivor of Auschwitz and had gone on to educate people of what happened under Hitler and his story. He was a great man and I wish I knew him longer than the 8 years I have. I couldn’t imagine what he would say to your comment thinking the swastika should be displayed and for anyone who thinks it is horrible they are just overly sensitive on the issue. Wow.
Like I said and I will stick with it, the stars and bars is now a tainted symbol which stands for a whole lot of what was wrong in our country. And no, I am not a person that is prejudice against anyone, nor am I close-minded.
That council member is making a strong statement in what he believes in by flying that flag loud and proud. And that statement is one full of ignorance with racist undertones–that is not jumping to conclusions.
February 16th, 2012 at 8:29 pm
The swastika has always been an important symbol in many religions, such as Buddhism. It currently holds a place of honor and is displayed in many of these temples in India, as well as other places in the world. The people who subverted the image are relatively very few in number compared to the people who revere its spiritual significance to them. It is like telling all Christians they should not display the cross due to the actions of the small number of “Christians” who protest military funerals, or better yet, because of the crusades. To say the symbol should not be displayed under any circumstances is close minded and prejudiced against the people to whom it holds positive cultural significance. There are currently movements to reclaim the swastika by these religions, due to the actions of some countries in actually outlawing the symbol. I was unable to meet relatives who died fighting Hitler’s Army, I blame Hitler, not an inanimate symbol. As far as the stars and bars go, not everyone who flies it does so with racist motivations. It is, however, a loaded symbol and if people use it, they need to have a better explanation than “it’s cool”.
February 17th, 2012 at 9:23 am
fyi all,
this marker is located in Ft. Sam Houston National Cemetery. he earned the knights cross in battle i guess. as you can see it’s part of the grave marker. he’s in a small area with other foreign pow’s that died in captivity mostly german. the inscription says something to the effect he died a long way from home serving a a.h. (pun intended). 20 years old.
bb
February 19th, 2012 at 7:02 am
[...] week’s poll asked about your thoughts on flying a Confederate flag. A fairly popular poll for both respondents and comments, it was surprising to see that most people [...]
February 19th, 2012 at 6:01 pm
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/139398563.html
July 17th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
This douchebag is back in the news: http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_21040213/west-st-paul-city-council-censures-member-alleged
December 18th, 2012 at 8:08 pm
The douchebag resigned: http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_22217575/controversial-west-st-paul-councilor-resigns
December 20th, 2012 at 8:16 am
“This will be my last meeting sitting here,” he said. “It’s been real. It’s been fun, but not real fun.
“It’s been interesting to get to know you all,” he continued, directing the comment to the council. “And I do appreciate the time you put in. And now I know what it’s like.”
What a shitbird.