According to this article (and the video clip above) via CBS News, earlier this week a restaurant in Pennsylvania banned children under the age of six. Citing unruly children who are loud and disturb other customers as well as their selfish and impolite parents, the ban went into effect on July 16th and the owner claims most customers will agree with his choice. The owner notes that there is “nothing wrong with babies, but the fact is you can’t control their volume.”
While the owner can do what he wants in his restaurant, some are disturbed by the choice he’s made. Many people have experienced unruly children in restaurants as some parents just don’t control their children’s volume (by taking them outside) or their behavior. In fact, some parents happily allow their children to run wild in a restaurant, stand on tables, or even “play” under other people’s feet while they eat. No number of dirty looks, comments suggesting they keep them under control, or complaints to management seem to keep them in line. Clearly some people, including restaurant owners, are fed up.
What about you? Do you think restaurants should ban children, regardless of behavior and parental control, from being allowed inside? Have you ever had an unruly child(ren) ruin a dining experience? Do you think parents are as rude and inconsiderate as the owner of the Pennsylvania restaurant believes they are? Whatever you have to say about this one go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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July 19th, 2011 at 7:22 am
Great Idea! I’ve only been bothered by “unruly” kids less then a handful of times over the years so I can’t really say it’s a big issue for me.
Is this even legal? Aren’t there public accommodation laws about this?
July 19th, 2011 at 8:06 am
Not being a parent, I am biased, but yet, I’ve been out to eat in the past and will end up near the table with the ill-mannered kids. At times it’s been loud voices, or kicking the chair-back of a booth, or just plain old being bratty.
Sometimes the parents have addressed the issue and removed or otherwise directed the kid to fall in line. Sometimes, they’ve ignored it.
When we do go out to eat, we typically try and sit in the bar area, sometimes at a hi-top table.
You can go where you will, (unless you try and go to this place) and if the situation bothers you, you are free to leave, or ask to be moved as well. I just take measures to try and distance myself from a possible wrath of an unruly kid..
So, overall, sure, I’ve been annoyed, but typically I try and distance myself from the situation. If it happens, it happens and it’s a minor part of your day, so blow it off and move on.
I guess depending on the type of establishment it was, the ‘ban’ might have more merit, like a fancy restaurant, or where couples typically go, vs. a BWW or Old Country Buffett.
July 19th, 2011 at 8:11 am
The owner is stupid and short sighted. Alienating customers is not a smart thing to do. Customers with kids will not return even when their kids are over 6.
As for unruly kids, I haven’t had very few bad experiences with other peoples kids. Our kids (3 and 1) are generally well behaved. However, we rarely go out. If we do it is well before bedtime, and we pack books, crayons and small toys.
I personally like the “it takes a village” philosophy. That means two things in this situation: 1) you calmly, but assertively, confront rude children (directly to the child) and adults. Also, expect that the restaurant do so too. Dirty looks do not count.; 2) Tolerate some level of crying. Most people have been, or will be, in a position where their kids is just throwing an uncontrollable fit. Handling the situation appropriately, at the time, is always easier said than done.
July 19th, 2011 at 8:12 am
I don’t eat out that often, so this has not been an issue for me one way or the other. I also don’t know if this is legal, but I’m happy enough to see someone give it a try and see how it goes.
July 19th, 2011 at 8:47 am
Personally, I feel that there’s nothing wrong with limiting where children are and aren’t allowed. It’s the right of the restaurant owner. If he finds that kids are causing a problem in his restuarant, and if more often than not the parents aren’t handling it, why shouldn’t he say that it’s just easier not to allow them? Same concept as people that specify no children at their weddings. Some environments are meant for the relaxation of adults. Just as kids need wholesome environments, adults also need a break from their stress. You wouldn’t take your kid to a strip club, would you? If you have a problem with the rule, just don’t go.
I also believe that “it takes a village,” but in modern urban environments, I don’t think it’s fair to say that everyone that lives in your city should be part of your “village.” I have had some very annoying experiences with kids at restaurants. I’m not saying that all kids are annoying: I love kids, and hope to have them myself someday. However, there is a reason why the concept of “the family restaurant” exists, and until your kid is old enough to behave politely, perhaps it’s best to stick to that type of venue or get a sitter.
July 19th, 2011 at 8:48 am
I think it is a non story. It is a business decision similar to putting a campaign sign in your window. You will get more customers than normal who fall on that side of the fence, but you are limiting your customer base by doing so. My guess is that it will be good for business for a few weeks as the publicity (the real reason for this) is out there, then things settle back to whatever was normal. If business goes down, we will hear another story about how they changed back to allowing kids.
Kudos to their marketing manager.
July 19th, 2011 at 8:49 am
Obviously it’s the owners choice. Cater to young families with kids (Green Mill), or the older crowd. If the establishment owner chooses to go after the adult crowd banning ankle biters under 6 is a perfectly good idea. When it’s your mortgage up for grabs you get to choose your strategy. And, since our ‘kids’ are now 30-somethings, with no kids, we welcome the under-6-year-old-ban. Pleasant dining everyone!
July 19th, 2011 at 9:01 am
Regarding the question about legality, I see no reason why it would be since it is children.
It would be interesting if he banned old people because they don’t tip well.
July 19th, 2011 at 9:08 am
I think the owner might have been better served stating that they reserve the right to ask you to leave if your children are unruly and you fail to control them to a level satisfactory to management and for the betterment of the overall dining experience. Sure there are good kids and unruly kids, but it’s ultimately the parents’ responsibility to keep them under control or judge that they’re not well behaved enough for a restaurant atmosphere. If you can’t, you should be ready to remove yourself from the situation, and any public place should have the right to state that to you, whether that’s a restaurant, grocery store, or a movie theatre.
July 19th, 2011 at 9:11 am
There you go again, lefty, generalizing about the senior crowd. I’m a very generous tipper; ~15% for poor service, 25%+ for great service. Servers have to put bread on their own table. I know I wouldn’t put up with the rude customers that so many servers have to endure, so I tip well.
July 19th, 2011 at 9:22 am
Chapter&Verse,
The only thing old about you is that you tell us you are old. You don’t act like it, so stop putting yourself into that category.
(I have to admit, I did have a little snicker when I typed up that tip thing wondering if you would figure out it was meant for you) :)
lefty
July 19th, 2011 at 9:53 am
I don’t have a problem with a business owner setting a rule like that. Seems like a stupid rule, but could be a rash of stupid parents and their stupid kids have been visiting and he/she just couldn’t take it anymore.
Sure, I’ve had my kids flip out. I’ve only had significant flip outs occur in public, twice with each of my two boys. They both had the issue around the same age, and how I dealt with it gave them plenty of incentive to suck it up and behave in the future. And other than one more time to test that theory, never had a problem again. I didn’t even have to spank them. Modifying a child’s behavior when they are under 5 is super easy. Doing the same once they are about 6.. good luck. Thus start them young.
Crying kids, well that’s one of the few things that kids just do. If they can’t dry it up, take them outside. I think the worst I’ve had with kids at a restaurant is the constant peering at me over the back of their booth chair. My wife tries to entertain them.
July 19th, 2011 at 10:12 am
i just usually never took my young children (the youngest is now a junior at the U of M) to “nice” restaurants. seems to be commonsense although i have seen people do it, having crying children or wild ones isnt very fair to other customers at such a restaurant.
we ate alot of McDonalds and other casual stuff back then, hell even going to
Fridays with our brood could be difficult, if the parents possess a semblance of empathy and respect, then such an experience is stressful to them and takes the fun out of eating at such a restaurant.
July 19th, 2011 at 10:29 am
We have dined once a week or so with our now late elementary school child since infancy to all sorts of restaurants, just not fast food, we leave that to Grandma. We brought toys and snacks during the early years but now expect table conversation instead.
Only once were we forced to leave once for her bad behavior. She was intentionally naughty at the table. She received an immediate reprimand and a warning. Unacceptable behavior reoccurred. I immediately took her and left the restaurant leaving my husband to finish his dinner and have ours boxed up. So there we sat, hungry in the cold dark car. It was winter. She screeched for a while but finally settled down while we waited and waited. It was cold, it was quiet, it was dark, we were hungry. She never again acted up in a restaurant.
When I see parents with kids acting up in a restaurant I blame the parents every time. It’s not a lot of fun to have your dinner ruined by your kid but no one should allow their kid to ruin anyone else’s dinner. Your kid, your responsibility. A restaurant shouldn’t have to ban children to make a parent act like an adult.
July 19th, 2011 at 10:39 am
I was the oldest of five children and if we even got to go out somewhere to eat, we were all dressed well and told that we would behave as though we were in church. My wife and I raised four kids and I was as stern as my parents were about behavior in a public place. We routinely got comments on their good behavior in restaurants. Some parents today just can not say NO! I agree with the idea that a restaurant owner can ban kids, but my money says he will regret it.
July 19th, 2011 at 11:13 am
Non issue. Its his business, he can do what he wants with it. I find it more interesting that people would read this and think there might be a should be a law against this kind of thing.
Our level of comfort with big govt, and/or our expectations that govt should or could babysit for us is scary to me.
July 19th, 2011 at 11:58 am
why shouldn’t a restaurant be kid-free? If the owner wants it, and can survive that way, more power to him. I would love a few kid-free places to go here (that aren’t bars) I’m sure if I should ever make that crazy decision to produce a mini-me or two I’ll change my mind, but for now? I say good for him.
July 19th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Not sure how this will work out from a business perspective, but I like the idea. I think parents who are spending a night away from their kids would appreciate this most.
Exactly, 95% of the time it seems that the parents of misbehaving (or even crying) children are the most miserable in this situation. It’s the other 5% that pisses people off. Obviously the problem here is the selfish and impolite parents.
July 19th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
OK, lefty, I’ll refer to myself as ‘experienced’ from now on. As an aside, I knew I was being lured in with your comment. But, like a hungry fish, I couldn’t resist the bate.
July 19th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
I wish more restaurants would do this. Specifically, I wish they would put hours on when kids could be there. No one under 12 after 7pm. There is no reason for a kid to be at a nice restaurant after 7pm. I’m not talking Chilis or Applebees, but nice restaurants. Were people go for dates, anniversaries, celebrations, and/or to get away from their own kids. As much as I hate being sat next to a table with a kid at it when I’m paying $75+ for the evening, it must be even worse for a couple who is paying a babysitter to watch their own kid and get stuck next to someone else’s.
July 19th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Kassie, I have no problems with that suggestion. We took The Rooster to Corner Table to celebrate a special occasion and spent over $100. We were home and he was in bed by his bedtime of 7 PM.
Then again my kid rarely makes a scene and when he does one of us immediately takes him outside.
July 19th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
My son has been going to fine restaurants since he was one week old. He has never caused discomfort to us or others while doing so. When he was very young, we made sure that he was either rested or sleeping, not in between. When he passed infant stage, we included him in the conversation (even before he could talk) and made our expectations of his behavior quite clear. He is now 22 and going to very nice restaurants without us; to my knowledge he still doesn’t throw tantrums or cry while there.
While I suspect it is within the restaurants rights to ban children, this for me falls into the category of punishing all for the crimes of the few (the ones with bad parents).
July 19th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
I find it interesting that nearly everyone here thinks it is OK for the restaurant owner to ban children. The sentiment–aside from “Hey, I would like to dine at a place like that”–may be summed up as “his business, his decision.”
OK then, how many of you would support a business owner who said, “Smoking ban? No smoking ban here! If you can’t stand smoke, don’t work here, and don’t eat here!”?
July 19th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
J,
While I totally understand what you’re getting at, children whining in a restaurant is not a health risk but smoking and second-hand smoke is a proven cancer risk.
What’s next? The health department isn’t allowed to inspect an owner’s operation because he doesn’t like the idea of it? “Don’t like it? Don’t eat here.” I don’t think so.
However, we have an entire thread which talks about one bar owner in WI and her decision not to abide by the ban going so far as to require payment in order to smoke in her bar so she can pay any future legal fees: http://www.lazylightning.org/one-wisconsin-bars-fight-against-the-smoking-ban
July 20th, 2011 at 12:16 am
I like O.B.B.’s response.
My father believed that his children should know how to behave in good restaurants. He considered it a learning and a PARENTING experience. Scenes, loud noise, running around, those things were just not tolerated.
We did the same things with our kids, and they ate in some pretty darned good restaurants — and were invited back.
Working in stores, I see too much lack of parental involvement. They are on phones, they are too busy SHOPPING, they ARGUE with their kids in public, for pity’s sake. Having money in your pocket does NOT excuse your behavior, or your child’s. By all means, take your kids to restaurants, but remember there are other people there paying for a meal and a good atmosphere, and if you can’t control your child, then by God, the staff should do it.
July 20th, 2011 at 10:09 am
My husband and I usually eat in the bar at a high top table like woodz. Then, I don’t have to worry about having any screaming babies, kids standing on the booth bench staring at me, etc. I have been there and done that when my kids were little. My son ALWAYS spilled when we went out. His hands always were moving and sure enough – bam, the milk went everywhere. Fun times. He still does that when we go out, but it is usually a Surly or equally expensive beer (we pay the tab). Some things never change.
July 20th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Bill- exactly. If I go into ANY restaurant at 5pm, I expect there may be children. Even a higher end restaurant like Corner Table. Kids need to learn to behave in public and eat in restaurants and all that, so there should be a place for them, and that place is in the earlier parts of a dinner service.
July 20th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Bill, just as nobody is forced to patronage a restaurant that allows unruly children, nobody is forced to eat, or work at, a restaurant that allows smoking.
July 20th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
J, I’m not going to argue this w/you. You want to think you’re right so be it.
July 20th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
It doesn’t necessarily have to be “bad” parents that allow a child to misbehave in a restaurant. A child may be overtired, getting sick, looking for attention, etc. It just plain old happens to EVERYONE! Sometimes hustling them out just isn’t going to work on a given day. So, don’t look down your nose at a family that might be struggling with a child or children at Target, church, Chili’s, etc., it just happens. We all have good days and bad days, so do kids.
July 20th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Mrs. Robinson, are you always so thoughtful, considerate and accommodating? I’m putting you up for sainthood!
July 20th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
If you found a way to bring your child somewhere, you can easily find a way to remove your child from somewhere, at least within reason. Parents that fail to enforce proper public behavior or remove their child from the situation, are not necessarily bad, but they are certainly inconsiderate, and showing disregard for those around them.
Excusing the inconsideration displayed by such parents by claiming it happens to everyone is simply a rationalization to justify the behavior. Simply put, parents not only should be, but in this society are expected to be in charge and control of their children when in public. Fortunately for parents, if you start when they are young, you will find children are very obedient and respectful of limits you place on their behavior. Unfortunately for parents, if you wait to start being strict until the children are 6 or over, well then you have a long road ahead, as the children have already developed what behavior they are comfortable with, regardless of your comfort.
July 20th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
Mikeh, exactly. I’ll take it one further to say that the unsuccessful parents that we describe are doing an extreme disservice to their children. It is one of their main jobs to teach their children how to operate within society, and this won’t happen unless it begins at birth. I believe thoroughly that “discipline” means TEACHING, NOT punishment. Children can’t behave well unless someone tells them what is expected of them – they need to know the rules or they will just act randomly! They are much happier when they know what to do. Are they supposed to guess???
July 21st, 2011 at 7:22 am
I’ve actually had more meals out ruined by people who can’t handle their booze, or who become obnoxious with wait staff than I have with children. A ban on assholes is in order.
July 21st, 2011 at 11:59 am
I hear you. We once had friends who always actted like demanding jerks to the waitstaff – they would rudely demand things that were not on the menu and just generally act as though the waitstaff were their personal slaves who had no other tables to care for. We stopped going out with them.
July 21st, 2011 at 1:06 pm
I try to be thoughtful, considerate and accommodating everyday. Am I successful all the time, no. I don’t judge people to be bad or good parents or bad or good anything. I don’t walk in their shoes.
July 21st, 2011 at 7:58 pm
You are probably a better person then I am.
July 28th, 2011 at 9:52 am
I understand kids aren’t always welcome, but I can live without getting glares at Perkins on Tuesdays, when kids eat free. My kids aren’t screaming or running around, but they are little kids (3 & 11 months). They aren’t silent.