Following a few recent articles about Farmington School District’s survey for families who opt to keep their children from attending school in ISD 192, I requested the raw sanitized survey data to take a peek at the results myself. While the results are not statistically significant, the thought process behind the 38 respondents speak volumes about why some families choose to send their children to schools outside of their home district and beg the question, “why?”
First some background based on the responses provided by those surveyed. Nearly 50% of the respondents live in Farmington and they have been living there between 6 and 10 years. The majority of these families have elementary aged children and half either currently attend or have attended classes within ISD 192 in the past. Nearly 33% of these people get their information about the district from sources other than newspapers, others they know who have children, district communications, or TV and the majority of the respondents (~66%) have utilized other education programs provided by the district.
As someone who is a new father and has been slowly planning for his son’s eventual entry into the local school district (supposedly one of the best in the state yet scoring far below what my wife and I deem acceptable based on our own schooling out of state) I am quite interested in the decision making processes which other parents may have worked out when their children became of school age.
Aside from the obvious issues that some of the parents responding to the survey had with their belief that ISD 192′s curriculum interfered with their religious beliefs/teachings, some of the comments left in the open ended questions echoed much of my own complaints about ISD 192. Take for instance this one:
ISD 192 simply places too much emphasis on facilities instead of education. Nice buildings do not make for a quality education any more than nice gyms make for a quality basketball program. Case in point: Our son’s school has one wood floor for grades 7-12 and still manages to teach physical education. For some reason, you need five gyms to do the same thing. Our son’s school also has multiple state championships in basketball with one gym. District 192 has close to twenty wood floor basketball courts and has yet to produce any. The point is: We’d rather have great teachers and coaches with subpar facilities than subpar teachers and coaches with great facilities.
It is clear that this particular parent does not align well with the parents I met on my own tour of ISD 192′s newest facilities at the $100 million shrine to Tiger sports who all seemed to feel that the most important part of the tour was the football stadium.
There are plenty of other examples that you can read in the spreadsheet linked above but what I’m mostly interested in are you own thoughts on how you came to a decision on where your children attend/will attend school. Did you just have them go to whatever school was available by default based on where you lived or did you move into an area specifically because you were fond of the particular district which served that area? Do you live in one district and have your children enrolled either in private or public school elsewhere? If so, what made you choose that option? Whatever you have to say about making the decision to enroll your child in school where they are or where they will eventually be go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear what you have to say.
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May 5th, 2010 at 8:16 am
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May 5th, 2010 at 8:49 am
We live in the White Bear Lake school district and have decided to keep our kids home and educate them ourselves. (Our oldest did attend kindergarten at WBL) Our decision has very little to do with the curriculum or the teachers or administrators. For us, it has most to do with the other kids. It seems that the teachers spend a lot of time in discipline and therefore not as much time in instruction.
Our concern was also for the time that our kids would spend with the other students when teachers or adults weren’t around. The homes that some of the kids come from are so broken that the kids in the schools often do not have the basic structure of discipline. When people talk about improving schools, I am tired of it always being about teachers and curriculum. I think a larger responsibility should be places squarely on the shoulders of the parents and families. Teachers and administrators are not miracle workers.
We know that our kids will be exposed to these types of kids and the language, topics of conversation, pressures and group think sooner than later. Our hope is to delay this and to have a bit more control than if we sent them to the public school for six hours every day.
May 5th, 2010 at 8:57 am
My children go to Farmington Schools and I couldn’t be happier with the experience. My oldest daughter goes to Dodge Middle School and I have two others at North Trail Elementary. This is our neighborhood school and I didn’t worry very much about the decision as I had heard from many sources that the school was great. I’ve found every staff member my daughters have worked with to be engaging and committed.
I participated in Early Childhood Family Education in 192 and got to know other parents in the district who had children in the schools so I knew much of what to expect. I wouldn’t change a thing!
May 5th, 2010 at 9:11 am
I have no idea what we’ll do with our 2.5-month-old twins.
My wife went to public schools growing up and her experience was good. I home schooled and my experience was good. I actually chose to stay home in high school when I could have gone to public school. As a student, I didn’t want to be shackled by the public education schedule. I wound up graduating high school a year and a half early and heading to college (a public university) at 17. Contrary to the rather snide comments that fact sometimes gets, I wasn’t some wonder-boy acing every test I got my hands on. I just didn’t need 4 years to get through it all. All of my brothers and sisters after me have gone to public school in high school.
I really don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all solution to education. It really frustrates me when people from organizations like Education Minnesota say that students staying home or going to private school take away from everyone else’s education experience. Really?!? You honestly pretend to think that one solitary education model works for 100% of the population? That’s ludicrous.
I have no idea if we’ll do public, private, or home school. I’m pretty sure we’ll try public school. We’re close to 2 elementary schools and I think it makes sense to try to use what we’re paying for. But if things were to go south, we’d be very open to trying something else. My biggest concern with having twins is that one will excel and one won’t, but I’m sure it will all work itself out.
May 5th, 2010 at 9:29 am
I can practically echo Tracy’s sentiment. For background, my wife was a middle school teacher, district curriculum leader and has a master’s in Education. We live in 196 within eyesight of Echo Park Elementary. We also were part of the planning/focus groups as part of 196′s magnet school initiative.
Our sons’ school more or less fells like it fell into our laps, though I believe we would have chosen it after a more thorough search. We did the tours of Echo Park, but because of our participation in the magnet school initiative, we also toured two of the three elementary magnet schools (skipping the arts magnet). Based on our oldest son’s learning style/competence, the tours, and the interviews (more or less informal) with the principals and some of the staff, we thought the STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Math) magnet at Cedar Park was a good fit. Thankfully, he got in via the lottery.
Our experience with Cedar Park has been exceptional, our younger son is there as well, and we look forward to our daughter attending. The recognition of each kid’s learning style, aptitude, needs and personality has been outstanding. We navigated the process of grade advancing our oldest son and every detail was considered and it has paid dividends in the quality of his learning.
While I totally respect Andy’s choice and opinions, I find myself valuing tremendously my kids’ exposure to kids, families and situations that span the continuum of race, ethnicity, lifestyle and socioeconomics. Cedar Park is very diverse which contributed to its status as a magnet school. Even at 6 and 8, I can already see the kids viewing others through a lens of humanity, but recognizing that there are different choices, rules and situations out there that they need to think about. I grew up in a racially and ethnically diverse elementary school and I firmly believe that my values are different than they would be had I grown up without that exposure. I’d rather introduce them to those situations sooner rather than later personally — I like that aspect of public schools and Cedar Park specifically.
Bottom line for us: Our choice was primarily on availability of curriculum that would best fit our kids’ learning style, interest, way of thinking and needs. Secondary were the “feel good” aspects — the environment felt cheerful and positive, the staff demonstrated care and commitment, and the facilities appeared well cared for and safe. Personally, I don’t give a rat’s behind about what kind of floors the gym has.
One other note, we were comfortable with Echo Park had our son not gotten into Cedar Park. I don’t want my praise for Cedar Park to be interpreted as a criticism of our neighborhood school.
May 5th, 2010 at 9:54 am
MSPD,
You brought up an important point for me. While I wish my children were not exposed to the issues that Andy brought up, I have a different perspective on it. I would much rather they be exposed to things (within reason, of course) when they are still young enough to feel compelled to come to me with their questions and concerns. As they get older, and yes I see this with my 12 year old, they are more apt to get their guidance from their peers.
For my family, I want them to develop the coping skills necessary to live in this society. I believe that sheltering them until they are older will only expose them when their support systems are weaker.
And, believe it or not, public schools are not the only place that kids are exposed to challenging or bad elements. If they are involved in sports, scouts, or even church, they still come in contact with bad attitudes, foul language, bullying and other issues. Heck, I’ve seen it with children who are shopping while unsupervised at Burnsville Center.
At the end of the day, we, as parents, have to raise our children the best we can and we have many choices. I respect the decision for home-school or private school. I know that I consider these options if things were different in my own district.
Tracy
Tracy
May 5th, 2010 at 10:00 am
I’ve got three kids who have or will have spent their entire K-12 experience in 196 schools in Apple Valley. Really my wife and I would say the experince has been very good. I don’t know where the schools have rated in testing and so forth, really I wouldn’t care much, although I’ve always been under the impression that Minnesota schools were very good.. I’m surprised by your comment that they’re much worse that you grew up with.
I went to school in California, some of the worst schools in the country, although they weren’t quite as bad when I went there, pre Prop 13 tax cuts.
But I did attend a school with a decent gang presence, where drugs were common and where there were the occasional fights in the hallways. Our parking lot had low riders, kids smoking and lots of beaters. We didn’t have the weapons in school that I hear about now, but I’m unhappy to report that Stockton was the scene of one the first school mass shootings back in the early 80′s.
My wife went to a public school where kids parked the BMW’s in the lot, had loads of money and all the sterotypes that you can think off.
What was the difference between our educational experiences? Very little. IN the end even the bad schools turn out good students who get into execptional schools. It’s all about the parents and their involvement in their kids eductation that makes the difference.
Poor test scores I believe have a lot to do with population at the school. I don’t mind sending my kids to schools like the one I went too simply because you can get an excellent education there and, you learn a few lessons about how to get along with people and avoiding the things that will derail you in school and later in life. But I had a very strong support system, good parents. A lot of those rich kids at the wifes school. .poster kids for the Tubes song White Punks On Dope.
You get what you put into it.
May 5th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I’m not going to defend Minnesota’s public schools, but I’m curious how you can possibly compare the scores of today’s schools with schools from your time in school over a decade ago. Or are you comparing your childhood school’s current scores with those of your local school district? It hasn’t been that long since I’ve been out of school but things have changed significantly already (curriculum, assessment, instruction, etc.).
May 5th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
I guess one of the things you choose is what you know. I was in District 196 from 10th grade till graduation. Before that District 11 (anoka-hennepin). My kids have been in District 197 for a couple years, then 196 for a bunch (Cedar Park, when it was not a charter school, then Valley Middle) and then they wrapped up 8th grade and over in District 192…
Of those I preferred District 11. Why? I dunno, maybe it was the time. this was before getting ribbons for Participation but was the middle of the latch key kid craze, something my brother and I became after our parents divorced when we were around 9 years old. It didn’t seem all that great when I was there, but the Jr. High did have an orchestra, which gave me a chance to participate in music once again. I also had the chance to take German, Spanish and French languages, starting with German in 6th grade.
So I practice all summer for High School football in Blaine, only to move just before school starts in the fall to Rosemount. Well, if anyone plays school sports you know, alot of what you know is based on what you’ve learned in the area as you moved up. I came from a different area, to Rosemount and didn’t know jack. Thus ended my football hopes. I gave it a shot in 10th grade but I wasn’t going anywhere. but the up side to the move was I found the ciriculum in ISD196 was woefully behind ISD11. 10th grade was a breeze, 11th grade was all AP classes, and 12th grade I was in the mentor program spending time at 3m and Honeywell writing robot control systems code. (VALII, a LISP type machine specific language) I could have graduated early, but my sweetheart couldn’t.. so I hung out.
My children blossomed in District 196. Both Cedar Park and Valley middle had great principals that focused on quality education and rigorous home work. When my kids moved to 192 in 8th grade and to graduate, it wasn’t quite as good. Partly due to the age difference, and partly due to the cliqishness of the schools. I also didn’t feel the that there was any effort to push the kids with homework or in the classroom. In my talks with teachers, I couldn’t seem to get them to see my point of view. They seemed focused on inclusiveness vs rigor. Again, that may be the time though, as from what I’ve heard that continues within most school districts now.
Perhaps the key is finding the right school within a district. There really are some good schools in 196. Heck, most of them might be. I just know the two my kids attended were great.
why did I choose the schools I did? Money. I ain’t got none, neither did my parents, thus I went to the school we lived by. What dictated where we lived? What was close to work… at least that is how my parents did it. For me, I tended to stick where the school worked and I’d drive to work.
I’m glad my kids are not in school anymore. the last few years, dealing with educators really gave me a taste for not wanting to talk with educators anymore. I’m not sure what their perspective is, but I know more often than not, it doesn’t fit with mine. thus we rarely saw eye to eye.
May 6th, 2010 at 8:11 am
My oldest two graduated from Lakeville, youngest child is in middle school. Looking back, I can’t help but wonder if I failed them by sending them to public school. All three are gifted. The first two decided to tune out, and get thrown out of the gifted classes because they were about piling on extra work, rather than letting them learn things with less repetition and a faster pace. They saw school as punishment rather than a learning experience.
The youngest is doing well in school, but has also dumbed himself down somewhat to fit in. Had I homeschooled them, they still would have had plenty of exposure to other kids – our neighborhood is a kid-Mecca – but they would have had the opportunity to continue to learn at a pace and style that worked for them, instead of being told to sit down, be quiet, and help the slower kids catch up.
May 6th, 2010 at 8:16 am
Due to my own prejudices and experiences with the vast majority of individuals who were homeschooled (aside from Joey obviously) both as part of my jobs in higher education and on a personal level, homeschooling is not an option. So what other options, public or private, are available to fit the needs of kids that may excel in an environment where pace or curriculum isn’t as slow or set as it is in the majority of public or private schools? Or are children who may be ahead of the curve pretty much screwed?
May 6th, 2010 at 8:54 am
I have two that went through District 196 and one that is still in high school at Apple Valley. The older two were well prepared for college and graduated (well, the second one in two weeks). The high schools have the AP classes which really are great for kids that have the ability to work at that level. There is also the PSEO (Post-Secondary Enrollment Options) which allow you to take college classes which count for credit in high school and college. It is cheap and gets you a jump on your “gen ed” requirements. There is also the Zoo School (The School of Environmental Studies), alternative for juniors and seniors. My oldest went there and loved it. The curriculum is all based on the environment and all the subjects are woven together in a theme. The student graduates with their “home” high school and the extra cool barefoot ceremony at the Zoo school.
May 6th, 2010 at 9:13 am
I agree on the homeschooling option. To me, I just dont feel that myself or my wife could deliver an education to our child that would be adequate in all aspects. I have no doubt we could teach him lots of great things, but I dont feel he would learn the social skills and more importantly the independence and decision making skills that he will learn being “on his own” in a traditional education environment.
That said, its a constant conversation in my mind trying to decide if we should stick to what we can afford and send him to public schools, or make the sacrifices needed to send him to a private school.
My wife attended a Catholic school from grades k – 6 and a public high school. I attended a public school for all grades, but both of us are from VERY small communities, so the idea of public schools here in the cities is somewhat scary to me.
I would say at this point, as we are used to making sacrifices to pay for day care, we are leaning more toward a private school, or possibly a charter school, at least for k-6. Its an ongoing discussion in our house (child is turning 3 in a week), with no answer in sight.
May 6th, 2010 at 9:58 am
So many things can change over time with schools: You may move to a community that has great schools; decide to have a kid; and in 5 years the local public grade school may be great, but the great high school may be starting to go downhill. By the time the kid gets to middle school – the high school may have completely done a 180. Then, you face another choice: do you move, pull your kid out of school/friends/neighborhood and have them start h.s. somewhere else? That time in a kid’s life sucks bad enough without having to be the new kid/outsider.
Bill, all you can do is gather up all the information you can at the time and make the best decision for your kid, and be involved as much as you can. (And know that the open enrollment deadline is usually the January or February BEFORE the school year that you want to have your kid start at that school – in ISD 196 anyway.)
May 6th, 2010 at 9:59 am
The success or failure of home school is completely dependent on the parents. That’s true to a certain extent of public school, of course, but a good teacher can sometimes make up for poor parenting. Similarly, good parenting can make up for poor teaching. With home school, you have to have both.
I was lucky/fortunate/blessed enough to have that. My mom was very competent. I did take community college classes for foreign language since that just didn’t seem very feasible to do at home. But everything else I was able to do at home.
Having said that, none of my siblings after me have stayed home through high school. I think it was a big challenge for my mom.
My parents don’t advocate that everyone home school. You have to put a lot of energy into teaching and you have to be competent to teach.
But the fact is public school isn’t the best fit for everyone and that’s okay. I know for a fact I wouldn’t have done nearly as well in math if it weren’t for the custom-tailored approach my mom was able to take with me. As it was, my highest scores in my SAT, ACT, and other standardized placement tests were always in math. But others wouldn’t have been able to pursue interests in things like science without the labs available to them in school.
My parents did a good job of keeping us engaged with other kids and I’ve had a lot of friends who were really surprised that I was home schooled, like they expected a socially-backwards geek (maybe someone more like Bill? ;) ). Sadly, not all parents are as good about that.
Bottom line, school is what you make it to be for your kids, whether it’s public, private, or home. Whatever you do, just be involved, know what’s going on, and be open to making changes to fix what isn’t working.
May 6th, 2010 at 10:03 am
I rescind my statements about Joey not being a homeschooled geekazoid. I was totally lying.
May 6th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Great comments, Joey. I always say that all good parents are home educators. Some decide to do all the education on their own, while others decide to partner with a public or private school. If you’re not doing a lot of work with your kids at home then they are not going to excel in their academic, social or character development.
As I stated above, this is the rub. Many parents are not home educators. They are expecting the schools to do it all. They are not involved and then complain about the test scores of the district. I’m with Joey. Whether you send your kids to a public or private school or educate them at home, take responsibility for the parenting/educating of your kids. You’re the one who is going to have to answer for their success or failure not some principal or teacher.
May 6th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Again, don’t assume that public schools are inequipped to handle this. Both of our boys are benefitting from excellent individualized attention and curriculum, including formal gifted/talented programs at Cedar Park STEM. Our older son was transitioned through the grade-skipping process, something I had previously been adamantly against. The thoughtful planning, research and testing done by the school, and other advice we received from independent experts on our own have led to total success from the experience. He is well ahead of the curve, but is engaged and challenged.
Building on Joey’s “school is what you make it, whether it’s public, private, or home”, I say exellence exists if you take the time, talk to anyone/everyone you can and keep an open mind (what you are doing here, so bravo to that Bill).
May 6th, 2010 at 10:22 am
Ouch…”exellence” is an ironic and unfortunate typo, isn’t it?
May 6th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Kids with good parenting can get a good education at most any school. I have always been convinced that if I tried to pick and choose the details of the K-12 experience that the offspring would get a worse deal than if we just let things happen. For example, the teachers I have seen win awards over the years have more often than not been the less-than-great ones. I don’t think that numbers (test scores, etc.) always tell the true tale. There are gifted teachers everywhere who will rise to the occasion when gifted with great raw material from good parents.
If the school has some less-than-wonderful elements, this can be a valuable part of your child’s education as well; more challenging to the parents, but nonetheless valuable. We have the instinct to protect our children from the very things that could help them to learn about the world and how to survive in it – ironic.
In his high school life (between soccer, music, and YIG), my son became friends with kids from all sorts of places – from Kennedy in Bloomington to Holy Angels. I didn’t see a lot of difference between these kids or where they ended up after high school. There were two significant factors that I observed: one, the parenting; and, two, the path taken in junior high. The second one refers to class choices that are very important in 7th grade but no one tells you so – choose algebra and a foreigh language and band, folks!
So, really, don’t get all upset over which school, Bill. Be a good parent and expose your son to all sorts of things (yes, good restaurants, too!), teach him all the time about everything, because learning is interesting and exciting, and his education will go well wherever he is. If things aren’t going well or he needs something different, you’ll recognize it and take care of it.
Read to him every night. Starting yesterday. Infuse him with curiousity about EVERTHING; teach him that learning is exciting and fun, not a chore. Don’t forget to feed him vegetables :)
May 8th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
“I’m not going to defend Minnesota’s public schools, but I’m curious how you can possibly compare the scores of today’s schools with schools from your time in school over a decade ago.” JF
We looked at how the schools we went to are currently rated on schooldigger.com and 196 schools. We both happened to go to school districts where the last time I looked every single school in each district was rated as a 5 star school and had they had superior stats in other areas besides test scores as well over the schools our child would go to here.
That being said we are definitely in the best district for this region of MN and 196 is one of the better school districts in the state to be sure.
January 11th, 2011 at 11:01 am
Minnesota ranks poorly in a recent study on the state of K-12 education in the US: http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2011/16src.h30.html (#36 of 50).
January 11th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
I believe it. One of the things I’ve always noticed about Minnesota is that the media is always bragging about being the best at this, the biggest of that, etc.; seemingly without actually checking on the real facts. They worry about these things a lot here, and it seems as though they would rather take credit for greatness falsely than actually try to be great.
January 11th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Not to say to much about this poll one way or another, but if you look into the numbers it appears that in several areas MN scored pretty well.
You might also notice that such educational hotspots as FL were ranked very highly, which would cast some doubt on the whole report.
January 11th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
I was kind of thinking the same thing Chad, especially considering that MN scores 10th in ACT scores, for example.
January 11th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
From the StarTribune: http://www.startribune.com/local/113251344.html
January 11th, 2011 at 9:11 pm
You wont get any argument from me that our Schools need a complete overhaul. I am just saying that some of the high level rankings in that report seem to skew away from conventional wisdom and from some of the facts if you drill down (ACT scores for example, as noted by Joey).
January 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
It strikes me that our schools need to have higher standards at a classroom level. The principals need to expect more from the teachers and the teachers need to connect better with and expect more from the students. Teaching is a results-oriented art, making it a unique profession. The worst teacher my son ever had was a teacher-of-the-year and had a resume packed with “professional development” entries. She would have scored well from every angle in an education analysis. She did a very poor job in the actual classroom, however.
We need smart, intuitive people in charge at the school level, peer review, and student reviews of teachers beginning freshman year. Oh, and remove some of the power from Education Minnesota – that Dooher guy is an ass.
January 12th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
I continue to believe that the both at the State level and the local level, our education leaders are leading us to mediocrity. The Feds or the State say your students must achieve this. They sent a standard, or a benchmark. And are schools start busting their hump to meet that standard. There is where my problem comes in. Somehow, in today’s education society (and perhaps in society in general) “meeting” a standard is what we strive for. When I was in school, meeting the standard was “C” work. If you want to do “A” work you need to best the standard. Set your standards higher than the minimal standards set by the federal and state government.
January 12th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
YES. Who wants to shoot for average? Government standards are usually expressed in minimums/maximums. Example: The maximum amount of pesticides OK in our food supply before you take one bite and drop dead. Or, the minumum amount of calcium you need before your bones snap like a bird’s. These are not goals!
We haven’t mentioned the self-esteem movement yet. This seriously lowered what we expect from our children. Twenty or so years ago, it was decided that all children should get nothing but praise regardless of the quality/quantity of their efforts. Low expectations are a killer to ambition and pride in self.