The video is a news interview with a high school student who hid in a gym locker twice, once armed with a video camera, to prove a 30 year veteran school teacher was stealing from students while they were in class. After recording the video she sent it to her father and then brought it to the principal who said he’d deal with the problem. The principal added she should delete the video.
Comments all over the web about the incident seem to point blame in all different directions. What do you think about this one? What is the worst thing about this incident? Is it that the teacher was stealing from students? Is it that a student recorded someone in a locker room without their knowledge? Is it that the principal asked the student to delete the video? Is it that other students feel bad for the teacher knowing she was supposedly a great one? Whatever you have to say about this one go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear what you have to say.
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February 28th, 2013 at 8:12 am
That the teacher was rummaging through people’s stuff.
No other part of it is remotely questionable in my opinion. Good for the student.
February 28th, 2013 at 8:24 am
Agree with MSPD.
The kid made a good (though possibly dangerous) call in trying to figure out what happened to the stolen stuff.
I am highly skeptical of the part where the administrator allegedly told her to delete the video. I am thinking there is more to that than the black and white statement in the article. It sounds great if you want to get a lot of people to read your article (and it worked).
It is pretty clear that person was stealing from children. Terminate her and charge her with a crime. Her history with the school or how “well liked” she was is irrelevant. I am guessing Tom Petters was pretty well liked in his day as well. Yep, I went for the gross exaggeration there.
February 28th, 2013 at 8:32 am
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February 28th, 2013 at 8:40 am
NWR,
A 30 year veteran teacher is likely making in the $70k range + mostly (if not all) paid benefits + retirement. If you were talking about a 2nd year teacher, maybe you could make some argument which I’d still refute when compared to another individual straight out of college in the current economy. However, in this case she’s making plenty.
February 28th, 2013 at 8:41 am
Why do you feel the principal allegedly telling her to delete the video isn’t questionable?
February 28th, 2013 at 9:15 am
I should have used the #sarcasm hash tag.
February 28th, 2013 at 9:26 am
Because I don’t believe that happened.
That said, if it did…then, yes, that would be 2nd place for what’s wrong with the picture.
February 28th, 2013 at 9:40 am
The worst part about this incident is that the principal asked the student to delete the video. That hints to me that the school was going to handle punishment without police intervention which is really discouraging.
> The underlying problem here is teacher salaries.
Really? While I agree that teacher salaries are too low for the value the provide there are plenty of teachers (I’d say really close to 100%) that don’t rummage through student belongings.
February 28th, 2013 at 10:32 am
Sure this wasn’t a random drug search? Randomly searching for stash?
February 28th, 2013 at 10:39 am
Sank,
In the video it is clear she has taken something out of a backpack. While she may very well have been looking for drugs, there is no way it was sanctioned by the school.
Your buddy,
lefty
February 28th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
I will never make 70k. No matter if I work for 300 years, am half robot and come to school on my hover board.
I’m in my first year. I make 17. Less than the poverty line. Even if/when I get full time and acheive my master’s (pay grade increase is done by education level, not time worked) I’m in line for about 42.
That being said, stealing from kids is deplorable. No excuse. However, the worst part of this story is the principal covering it up. The real reason that bad veteran teachers are still in their spots and good teachers leave the profession is the old boys’ (and girls) relationship that is shared between many veteran teachers and administrators. Leadership needs to support teachers, but also take everything into account. It appears pretty obvious she was stealing.
February 28th, 2013 at 12:22 pm
Correction–I’m above the poverty line. And because of family support and loans I don’t live “in” poverty. But the point remains. Teachers are supposed to be professionals right?
February 28th, 2013 at 12:37 pm
Mr. V,
You are getting screwed. According to ED. MN., Average Minnesota first-year teacher salary is $33,009. How can you be at about 1/2 the average? Where/what do you teach? I hope it’s not contract negotiation.
Still not bad for 3/4 year work and amazing benefits.
Check it out: http://www.educationminnesota.org/en/community/mnschools/schoolstats.aspx
February 28th, 2013 at 1:47 pm
Delete the video???? That person should be fired too! Shouldn’t even waste any more time on this – both need to go. As far as teachers’ salaries – I’m in agreement with Bill! They aren’t as low as people think. They make more than recent law school grads!
February 28th, 2013 at 2:28 pm
Exactly NW Roch. I call bullshit.
My wife was a middle school teacher 10+ years ago and, within a couple years, was over $50K, and that’s not including the extra fees earned for coaching, etc. nor her very generous benefits.
February 28th, 2013 at 3:10 pm
I’d love to know what a teacher pays for benefits for a family. I have a feeling it’s nowhere near the $800+ I pay out every month which gives me the most basic coverage (I pay 100% out of pocket until we hit our very high deductible which for the family is about $6500 and then we pay 25% after that until we hit our out-of-pocket max of just over $12000). So, figure we’re very likely to spend up to $22,000 on healthcare every year.
I don’t ever want to hear a teacher whine about their pay again.
February 28th, 2013 at 4:03 pm
How come all you guys dumb enough to work in the private sector don’t just go become teachers? I mean, the work is nothing, the pay freakin’ rocks, you get your summers off. It’s the good life, I tell ya.
I wish my middle-school teacher wife made $50,000, by the way. Although, she’s only been doing it for 8 years. Maybe at 10 is when the money REALLY kicks in and I can quit my crappy corporate job and live off her wealth.
My wife makes a point to never complain about her pay – she says she knows she has it good with summers off. But Jesus, so much whining about teachers. How come nobody’s leaving their jobs to go into teaching?
February 28th, 2013 at 4:04 pm
And Bill, it sounds like you’re getting absolutely cornholed by your company. Damn.
February 28th, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Jason,
Insurance like that is going to become a reality for everyone as companies continue to cut costs and push everyone towards government-sponsored insurance plans.
Insurance plans like these didn’t even exist until a few years ago, now they do and they’re only going to get worse.
As for why I wouldn’t want to be a teacher, it has nothing to do w/the pay or benefits (I was paid about $40,000 a year when I worked for the state in 2008) it has to do w/the fact that I have no interest in teaching.
February 28th, 2013 at 5:12 pm
I don’t get the “pay hate” for the teachers here.
Do you want the most inexperienced, incompetent, people to teach your children?
I’m not thinking that all of today’s teachers are great, but what other incentives do you want to take away to make the teaching profession even less of a desirable career to get into?
This state had an incredible reputation for education initiatives and had a high grad rate compared to most other states back in the day.
But now that’s gone.
Instead we hear bitching about salaries being too high for only 9 months of work. So let’s cut their pay even more so that they can continue to flee the public sector for the private sector and further dwindle the pool of truly good ones that are still left.
So here’s what I’d know from those of you that feel the teachers are so over compensated:
What should a K-12 teacher make? What benefits should they have?
Should we have them do office work for those 3 months to justify these enormous salaries? Or maybe mow the schoolyard lawn? Paint?
It’s a shame that the people of today say they want the best for their kids, but yet vote down school referendums so they can save $60.00 a year in property taxes.
I get that the benefits for health care are better then the public sector, but that’s not the case for other public sector employees. For example my wife is a PS employee and my private sector health plan is better than hers for the coverage I get so I wouldn’t trade it for her plan as it would cost me more for less coverage (yes family coverage is hideously expensive, thus the reason we don’t do it that way).
Yes, there are bad teachers getting paid big bucks due to union rules that favor the worker (actually “used to” would be more accurate now) and there are good young teachers that want to start a family but can’t afford to stick it out teaching in local districts for years in hopes of getting a better position when they could instead find something in the private sector that doesn’t require her to put up with the BS that teachers have to these days.
February 28th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
At risk of diving into this stupid, played out quagmire….
Jason2, if you re-read what I said, WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS, she was over $50K, not after 10+. She quit at about 5 years to start her own business. (I admit I should have clarified that she got her Master’s while she was teaching which contributed to her hitting that mark).
Here is the District 196 CBA with pay rates (not where my wife taught, but similar district demographics, size, etc.). Half the pay levels/lanes are above $50K. http://district196.org/District/Employment/Agreements/index.cfm
As shown in the CBA, there was also a lot of extra money available for other things. She got thousands annually for being a District Curriculum Leader, several hundred for each assistant coaching effort and leading other extracurricular activities and other stuff.
I’m not saying it was great, horrible, or right or wrong for anyone. I am simply saying that those crying that teachers IN GENERAL (not isolated cases) are flirting with the poverty line are full of shit. Teaching can be a financially rewarding profession, or a struggle-fest, just like any other.
February 28th, 2013 at 5:22 pm
I should have said “them” instead of “her” in the last sentence.
Sorry for any sexist or chauvinist cultural calamities that I might have caused by publishing those gender specific terms that would profile women as teachers or cause them undue hardships because I unknowingly re-enforced a stereotype that they are fighting to eliminate.
February 28th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
All this just because some people need new batteries in their sarcasm detectors. :)
February 28th, 2013 at 7:05 pm
I don’t have “pay hate” for teachers. I think the biggest problem with MN schools is the teachers’ union. The union refuses to allow teachers to be compensated for their contributions or performance. It insists on a LIFO policy for staff reductions. They operate in the, sometimes, insane union mentality.
Remember when Lakeville teachers refused to write college recommendation letters for seniors at the behest of the union to make a point? http://www.startribune.com/local/south/131178918.html?refer=y
I find that kind of crap simply detestable. And, I believe it’s that kind of “negotiating” that makes people resent teachers and their whining about how little they claim to be paid.
I also think the union mentality keeps all us private sector people from becoming teachers. Why work in an environment where your effort isn’t what is rewarded? You simply have to teach the school provided lesson plan year after year until you have more seniority and can get your annual raise.
February 28th, 2013 at 7:45 pm
I wonder if Mr. V teaches in SD, because 17k-19K is the going rate for first year teachers.
February 28th, 2013 at 8:55 pm
Drugs or gambling. About the only things that turns people stupid and has them stealing. Really, stealing from kids in a locker room. you think no one will figure it out?
Principal saying to delete the video, typical. I can’t remember details but wasn’t there an issue about some school bulling in Farmington a year or so ago and administrators that refused to act though claiming they did. It would be nice if everyone was above board and did their jobs correctly. But their are those that don’t in every profession. Just some make more news than others.
March 1st, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Sorry for getting everybody into a pay debate over teachers. I’m in a rural district where the scale is a lot lower than in the normal LL reading area and also I’m not full-time. The only position I could get as a new teacher was one less than full.
To NW Roch Guy: Again like I said, our district does not have seniority steps. No annual raises. The only way to earn more is to get more education. In fact, I’ve heard this really made those lazy teachers which you hate pretty angry because they couldn’t coast anymore.
March 1st, 2013 at 12:41 pm
Leaving out the fact that you are part time seems a bit misleading. It’s another example of how teachers generate “pay hate” by claiming they are under paid.
Have a nice summer.
March 1st, 2013 at 12:57 pm
To quote myself,
“Even if/when I get full time and acheive my master’s (pay grade increase is done by education level, not time worked) I’m in line for about 42.”
I try to teach my kids that skimming can mislead us and we miss the author’s intent.
March 1st, 2013 at 4:09 pm
Hopefully you aren’t also teaching those kids your skill at being kind of a standoffish dick.
I’m sure if I chose a part-time corporate job in a rural community instead of the downtown Minneapolis, full-time gig I have now, I probably wouldn’t be making the same money as my current peer group either.
Either way, in any circumstance, my response to my economic condition won’t ever include stealing money from children’s backpacks.
And so marks my last whack at this dead horse.
March 2nd, 2013 at 9:39 am
Mr. V,
You are right. My MN public education didn’t prepare me to read very well.
On the other hand, If I was a smart teacher like you, I would teach my kids that they should write clearly to best get their point across. Don’t force your reader infer your meaning by putting two sentences together like a puzzle.
Take for example:
I won the lottery. At least I will when and if I pick the correct numbers and buy the ticket.
Is less clear than:
I didn’t win the lottery.
Have a nice summer.
Does the V in Mr. V stand for vague?
March 2nd, 2013 at 8:46 pm
NWR, you probably weren’t prepared for reading because you went to Rochester schools? (I kid. I have a beef with an AP in Roch.)
However, due to the nasty nasty redo of the standardized tests, inferring is now the #1 skill students need in reading, so any opportunity they get to practice it is good. Mr. V is merely doing a public service.
/sarcasm (except about the test. That test is gonna suck)
That said, I make a lot more than 17K, and am in my 4th year teaching. Of course I work for the highest paying district in the state. (on and off) But given the environment I work in, I consider it battle pay.
Even when I was working part-time, at one of the lower-paying districts, I made more than 17K. Mr. V, you’re getting hosed.
March 2nd, 2013 at 8:46 pm
Oh, and I have 2 master’s degrees worth of credits.
March 2nd, 2013 at 9:10 pm
DM,
Your credits impress me, but I would be more impressed with your ability to teach – proven by test results. Why are you and your union reluctant to allow you and your peers to be rewarded by results vs. years taught?
I actually wen to White Bear Lake schools. It sucked. I learned most in college.
My experience with my kids in MN schools is that all teaching is centered around the testing of the month. There is no consistency from year to year so there is no way to measure my kids’ performance. The teachers teach to some tests and others are mandated. There is no direction or reason to what is being taught.
According to my kid’s teacher there are 28 letters in the alphabet. Who knew that there are two types of A and G?
MN schools could be better with consistent testing and performance based rewards for teachers. How can you argue with that?
March 3rd, 2013 at 8:31 am
NWR, quite frankly, you can take your test-measured performance of teachers and suck it.
I get my students in 7th and 8th grade reading at anywhere from a 1st to 5th grade level. By the end of the year with me they have risen at least 2 grade levels on average. Those are fantastic gains. Can they pass your standardized tests? Not a chance in hell. Should I be punished for that by losing my job? I don’t think so.
I only stated my credits so that my placement on the pay scale would be clear, not to give any indication of my teaching skills. Which, btw, are excellent.
March 3rd, 2013 at 10:11 am
The way I see it, you would be rewarded for ability to raise your student’s skills the two levels. That’s great performance.
I would be willing to bet the teachers your kids had in grades K-6 weren’t as effective as you, and would be weeded out by performance based reviews.
That’s the way almost all private enterprises work. Why should teaching be different?
March 3rd, 2013 at 12:40 pm
I’m going to regret wading into this, but…NWR, go back to post 34 and read your third and fifth paragraphs. Do you see where you are contradicting yourself?
If think teaching to the test is a problem now, how is what you’re proposing going to be any different when the stakes are even higher? This would be swapping out one test for another and adding more bureaucracy into the system, which certainly doesn’t need it.
Moreover, how is such testing going to make students want to care, or parents want to care?
You want teachers to be accountable, fine, but this isn’t the way to do it.
March 3rd, 2013 at 3:12 pm
NWR, I have no problem with performance based assessment. If that is based on MY performance, not someone else’s results.
March 3rd, 2013 at 3:24 pm
dm,
Unless I misunderstand you, which is entirely possible considering I’ve put in 65.5 hours this week–far more than what teachers do during their 9 months of work every year, what you just said makes absolutely no sense for your role as most people see it.
In my opinion, a teacher is very similar to a coach or a manager. Both of those jobs require the individual’s job assessment to be based on the results of those under them. I don’t see why you should be held to any different standard.
March 3rd, 2013 at 3:42 pm
I see what you’re saying Bill, but as I see it, the difference is motivation and choice. A coach is coaching a bunch of people who have competed for those spots. A manager is is managing people who face consequences if they don’t perform. If a player doesn’t perform, they get benched, or cut. If an employee doesn’t perform, they get fired (yes, even teachers, the union doesn’t protect them like you all seem to think it does).
A teacher is teaching a group of students who have no consequences if they don’t perform. If a student fails their MCA-III test in Minnesota, there is no consequence whatsoever. Except for the teacher. The teacher, based on your misguided idea that test scores show accurate learning measurements, faces censure based on non-motivated performers results.
That doesn’t make sense. Do you KNOW how many students don’t even try on tests? In my classes, students are placed in my class based on test scores. Because they don’t try on the tests, I end up re-testing at least 1/3 of them, because they don’t need the intervention class. But they didn’t try on the test and failed it. Once they know they can get out of the class and back in an elective, they magically try on the test.
Give the students a known consequence for failing their standardized tests and THEN you can use them to measure teacher effectiveness.
Also, you’re cute thinking teachers don’t put in 65.5 hour work weeks. (Again though, I’ve never complained about my pay)
March 3rd, 2013 at 4:25 pm
dm,
No, there are plenty of athletes who don’t try and you still have to coach them and still have to respond to their parents; however, you’re right about the consequences related to most jobs (although I worked in the public sector and saw that there were few consequences, if any).
As far as working 65.5 hours a week, we differ greatly in our opinion of what constitutes work. While I can’t speak for your specific situation, sitting behind a desk watching kids take a test or during study hall is not work.
March 3rd, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Oh, how I wish I could sit behind a desk and oh how I wish my kids got a study hall.
March 3rd, 2013 at 6:22 pm
dm,
Isn’t being able to motivate kids to learn the characteristic of a great teacher? Can’t great teachers find ways to make boring material fun to learn? I know that I have had teachers that were able to make me study harder because of the way they taught.
You view of how managers can fire employees at will to motivate them is cute. The termination process is lengthy and complicated. In fact, the process is meant to “motivate” the employee to work up to acceptable standards so that he/she isn’t fired. The manager has to find ways to get through to an employee that may just want to do the bare minimum. I believe it would be similar to motivating a student that just doesn’t care.
As for the hard working teach myth, I simply ask you this: how many teachers go to the state conferences during MEA versus just take the days off? Less than 10,000 of the state’s 70,000 teachers attend.
How do you suggest teachers’ performance be measured?
March 3rd, 2013 at 8:48 pm
NWR, I’ve worked in the private and public sectors, so I do in fact, know how much easier it is to fire an employee than give a student consequences for failing a standardized test.
The termination process for an at will employee is much easier.
Do you really think walking around a fair getting free stuff is indicative of hard work? That’s all the Education Minnesota conference really is. Since I don’t support the union in the majority of their decisions, no, I don’t go to the conference. I also don’t think we need two days off to attend it. However, I don’t think my non-attendance has anything to do with how hard I work.
The problem with your arguments is your need to lump 100% of teachers together. Are there bad ones? yes. Are there many, many, more good ones? Yes. When I leave my job at the end of the day (never earlier than 45 minutes after my contracted end time) there are always teachers still there, working. I can think of exactly one teacher who bolts out the door the minute our contracted day is up.
No matter how “fun” a teacher makes “boring” material, the ultimate choice is up to the student.
As or how teacher’s performance be measured, I’m content with the thrice yearly observations I have done by my boss, in my classroom, judging me based on a professional framework used around the country for teacher evaluation. Two are surprise observations and one is planned. These observations “grade” me based on my lesson content, measurable objectives, behavior management, my ability to engage students in learning and finally my effective assessment of student learning. Three times every year. To me, this is a lot more accurate measure of MY ability than a one-off test dependent on a 12 or 13 year old sitting in the same room for 5 hours (two days in a row) answering multiple choice questions on figurative language and dragging and dropping items into chronological order on a computer test.
I’m done with this topic.
March 4th, 2013 at 8:46 am
I wasn’t equating firing an employee to an ultimate consequence for a student, I was simply stating that motivation is a valuable skill in both private and school environments.
I am sure you are content with a the three observations per year. I bet you and your fellow teachers don’t step up your game at all while being observed. And, if this subjective type or evaluation is so great, why do we give students objective tests? Shouldn’t we just have you teachers make unbiased evaluations of your students based on your observations?
In fact, this method could be used for all professions. Why should doctors take boards? Just have a teacher observe them for a couple hours and if all goes well during those few hours, they are good to practice.
You claim you don’t support many of your union’s decisions, but it appears you are first in line for the union’s kool-aid about performance based testing.
March 4th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
“sitting behind a desk watching kids take a test or during study hall is not work.”
Until one of the kids decides to do something stupid? Face it our teachers put up with enough bullshit and babysitting because parents are more worried about who the next lucky girl will be in the bachelor.
March 4th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
It’s hard to argue with the concept of objectively evaluating teachers — or anyone, in any profession. The question is how to objectively, and accurately, evaluate teachers. Evidence that purports to be objective but is inaccurate is, at best, useless. At worst, it’s dangerous.
NWRG’s argument rests on a flawed assumption: standardized tests provide an accurate assessment of a teacher’s ability. But take the example of a teacher who teaches a small number of students who have been low-performing, many of whom come from poverty-stricken homes. Some of the students sometimes go hungry at night. Others witness, or are the victim of, domestic abuse. A few have supportive parents who ensure that their children do their homework and excel in school.
Those students take the same standardized tests as students in a district where most families are well-to-do, and many are quite wealthy. None of the students go hungry. A few experience problems at home, but a very large number have parents who are highly involved in their schooling.
Even assuming our standardized tests are objective, does that make them accurate measurements of teachers’ abilities? It seems quite unlikely. We should be careful not to assume that something purporting to be objective is also an accurate measure of the actions of third parties.
March 5th, 2013 at 10:36 am
Let’s not assume the standardized test is the only component of a new teacher evaluation. I would also keep the one-over observation, add a parent feedback component, and even a student feedback component after 3rd grade.
But face it, the system won’t change as long as the teacher union Education Mn owns the legislature.
March 5th, 2013 at 11:53 am
Can’t we just post teacher names on the District 196 website with a little green thumbs up and a litte red thumbs down as an evaluation?