Well, after many years and many millions of dollars which should have went to pay for anything other than something as wasteful as a performing arts center, the Burnsville PAC will soon be opening in the Heart of the City.
Somehow the Burnsville City Council has coerced the local news media into providing extensive coverage of this event with Thisweek not only having many articles covering the topic, a video “sneak peak” on their website, and a pull out section in their paper delivered for this weekend. The Pioneer Press just had an article come out which discussed some of the controversy surrounding the PAC but mostly how wonderful everyone thought it was especially those in the City Council and those somehow affiliated with the city.
My favorite quote from the Pioneer Press article comes from Jeff Prauer, executive director of the Metropolitan Regional Arts Council who apparently said, “Smaller venues might start to fill in when people find they can’t really afford the bigger tickets. It’s a time to be concerned and cautious, but it also could be seen as a time of opportunity.”
Jeff, please excuse me while I puke. Oh that’s better. Honestly, there are a ton of places where you can get better value than what’s being offered at the Burnsville Performing Arts Center. Tickets for Nick Colionne and Bill Engvall (whose name is spelled incorrectly in the header of the pull out section located in Thisweek’s special section, something which gave me a good laugh) are in the $50 range (especially after Ticketbastard fees). The thrilling and exciting “Church Basement Ladies” which has to be subtitled as including some guy from M*A*S*H to get people to give a shit (people my age barely know M*A*S*H aside from the fact that it was on TV in reruns when we were kids) will set you back between $40 and $50 after fees.
Now, explain to me why the fuck I am going to go to the Burnsville PAC instead of taking the train from Bloomington (this is to offset their argument that people in the South Metro will have to pay for gas and parking if they see a show downtown) to Minneapolis to take in a show which will cost the same and offer much better variety? Oh, it’s because the article told us so, how silly of me.
I cannot find one decent event listed on the lineup available on the Burnsville Performing Arts Center website for the next six months that would be worth the time and money even if anything that the people supporting the center were right about the cost associated with seeing something downtown. It would also seem that others agree as Roger Swanson, director of marketing and development for the center says that ticket sales are “strong” particularly for Engvall. If a marketing director can’t come up with something better than “strong” to colorfully describe ticket sales, you know something is wrong. This is a publicly funded arts arena and ticket sales should be displayed alongside the listings for each show with full information disclosed on the revenue per seat as well. If the Burnsville City Council wants to have the people pay for it, I say that the people should know exactly what their money went to fund and how successful the management of that center is. I guarantee you that we will never see anything nearly as specific as what I laid out because it’s not performing anywhere close to what the people were promised even with Engvall’s “great” show looming in less than two weeks.
So, what do you think about the lineup for upcoming Burnsville Performing Arts Center shows? Are you interested in seeing anything that will be coming down the line in the next six months? Do you believe the marketing director’s comments that ticket sales are “strong”? Whatever you think about the Burnsville PAC, comment on, I’d love to hear what you have to say!
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BPAC Financials Archive
January 18th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Looks like the line-up at a casino auditorium — there are no top-tier acts on the list, a few you might’ve heard of before, and several WTF listings. Not what you’d expect from a newly opened, glitzy show palace. Where are the A-listers who will draw big crowds and sell the tickets? I guess the real question is who is doing the booking for the venue? I think the current line-up just reinforces the “suburbanites have no taste or class” stereotype for the urban hipsters who like to look down on us.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
hmmm. line up looks pretty weak. I would say the twin cities jazz festival and the Dakota County Symphony are the two best deals on the calendar, not that I’m going to go… but if I was to go that would make the most sense. The rest is crap.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I agree that the financials should be public, but what do you want to bet that the City hides behind the operator’s skirts on that issue. The City is never going to make public how many seats are left unsold for each performance, and the attendance descriptions are always going to be vague, but positive. “Hundreds” of people will attend each performance, and “thousands” will attend over the course of any show that has multiple performances. The PP article indicated that the stage could be utilized for ballets – if there is ever a professional, nationally recognized ballet (local dance troupes and dance school recitals and performances don’t count) scheduled to perform there, I’ll shell out money to go, and drag “Mr. Whit” along. Hell, I’ll even buy a “I (Heart) Burnsville T shirt to wear to the show.
Does anyone else think the PAC’s logo looks like multicolored pairs of deflated lungs superimposed on one another? or cartoonish turkey wishbones?
January 18th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
More from the Star Tribune on this topic here.
Best quote:
January 19th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Another thing about the Pioneer Press article was the fact that there was no “post comments” section. A dead give away to a “fluff only” story.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I’d go see Cabaret — I like the show and I’ve heard good things about Chameleon. Besides that, maybe the Dakota Valley Symphony, but otherwise there wasn’t anything that would interest me. My mom would like Melissa Manchester, though the idea of a gala that is sponsored by Pawn America and a copy shop is kind of funny.
January 20th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Its funny, I really remember reading the Mayor and others who defend her state that this was built with state funds and was not going to cost burnsville tax payers any money.
300K per year sounds like a fairly sizeable amount of coin to me. I think the fact that several different private enterprises decided this was a loosing proposition and walked away should be the first/best clue that this is dumb.
All that said, I guess its our problem now, so I hope they get some acts in that will fill the place up.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
First of all, I don’t think your foul language is necessary. You have the right to express your opinion in a professional manner.
Secondly, there are entertainment venues of various nature all around the Twin Cities. Not everyone likes the same type of entertainment. We will attend some of the shows that may appeal to us and some we will not attend.
This is a new venue, and as much as I do not approve of using taxpayer dollars for such(ie; the new Twins stadium) I am hoping that operating costs will be paid from user fees and other non- taxpayer revenue. This can be done if it is promoted properly. If not the city will be held accountable.
The quality of entertainment will improve over time just as other new venues have shown. Nick Colionne is a national known artist and put on a very good concert. Other types of shows reflecting various catagories of arts and entertainment will attract those that enjoy their selective likings.
One more item: There is good entertainment downtown. Add up the ticket cost, parking, and gas, and evaluate that total costs to the quality of the selected show one attends.
I avoid Ticketmaster at all costs. There fees are absurd.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I fucking love foul language!
February 25th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Tom, while I agree with much of what you said, I have a couple of points of contention.
First, you stated :”You have the right to express your opinion in a professional manner.” This is not true. He has a right to express his opinion in any manner he chooses. If we worried less about bad words and more about content, perhaps we would be better off.
Second, you stated that the quality of entertainment will improve over time. I have to disagree. If they are not selling tickets, the quality will likely decline. The place will be less likely to take risks on more costly shows if the track record is bad. So, they need to line up decent acts from the start, before they get on the slippery slope of half full shows.
Also, I have no idea who Nick Colionne is. I could google it, but I just dont care.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Chad is the content really that poor?
February 25th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Well, now that you mention it………….actually it was meant the other way. People read stuff and discount it due to thier childish fear of bad language. If they would ignore that and stop and think about the content, they would realize that some of the points being made are important and legitmate.
I always think its funny when people are offended by coarse language. In my experience most people swear. They might not talk that way in front of thier kids, or whatever, but they probably watch R rated movies, they swear on the golf course, or utter the occasional profanity when they are upset about something.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I know someone who never swears. To my knowledge she’s never sworn in her life. Mostly, I just want to kick her in the face.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:31 am
tom…
“I am hoping that operating costs will be paid from user fees and other non- taxpayer revenue. This can be done if it is promoted properly. If not the city will be held accountable.”
That’s the thing Tom. Even the Mayor and the most ardent supporters project a $300,000 operating deficit for “several years”. Since those are the calculations of the PAC’s strongest supporters, you have to think a more realistic figure is much higher.
The city isn’t held accountable, we are when they push that operating loss burden onto our tax bills.
February 26th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Maybe they could hold their town hall meetings in the PAC?
February 26th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Or Chili’s.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Oh!! A Chili’s in the PAC? AWESOME IDEA, MSPD!!!!!
February 26th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Burnsville is so desperate for food options at the PAC that I wouldn’t be surprised if they develop a “Stomach Stimulus Plan” which will be anchored by a $165 million skyway to Chili’s at Burnsville Center.
For sure that would attract attention and they could model it after Buck Hill’s Magic Carpet and get the skiers to use it too! Oh this is fucking win win!
March 8th, 2009 at 9:42 am
I went there last night to see the Chameleon Theater Group’s presentation of Cabaret in the Black Box Theater. I knew somebody in the show, otherwise I might not have ever even gone. Tickets were 17.00 – a reasonable value compared to similar level productions I’ve seen elsewhere in the cities. The show was well done, featuring all local actors, musicians and crew who very clearly have other primary occupations during the day. Chameleon is a local theater group that’s been around for 11 years and been bouncing from venue to venue. They are going to call the Black Box Theater at the PAC their home, and I will probably go there and continue to support them. They are definitely worth checking out if you can get over stepping foot in the place.
Otherwise, I agree, the lineup for the main room is pretty sub-standard, and in general the whole place seems like a waste of $$ for what it is…
May 6th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
I have a comedy club business in the Twin Cities. I dont have my own venue yet so I do monthly shows around the Metro area, Faribault and Mankato. Back in March I began monthly weekend shows (1 Fri/2 Sat) in the Black Box. Its a BEAUTIFUL venue. The staff there are top notch and soo easy to work with. They really go out of there way to make you feel welcome. Our first show was March 13-14 with headliner Klaus Myers, Germany’s Top comedian. We had a great turn out. In April, another great show WITH return customers. I know this because I put comment cards on the tables. I am the one responsible for booking the talent and I’m very particular about my comedians. No crude or disgusting humor. I want clever comedians who CAN entertain a crowd. The comedians are NOT amateurs. They have TV and Movie Credits. Klaus Myers was in over 28 episodes of the TV show King of Queens and most recently the movie Mall Cop. One of our comedians in October writes for Jay Leno on the Tonight Show..Our next show is May 15-16th. Tickets are $20 and you will get your monies worth AND you can check out the venue and see for yourself what a great place it is. I have shows scheduled at BPAC thru November. The show schedule is on my site http://www.minnehahacomedyclub.com
Like anything new establishment, business takes time to build. Burnsville is an awesome community and an ideal place for a Performing Arts Center. I know there is heartburn about using taxpayers money so go in and take the time to tour the place and see what your money is paying for. The staff would be more than happy to give you a tour.
Success doesn’t happen overnight and especially in 4 months! A nice place for entertainment without the gas guzzling drive.
Just give it a chance!
May 7th, 2009 at 5:38 am
Mike, your comment was in the spam filter. Sorry about that.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Mike: I’m sure your business is wonderful – and you help make people laugh – which is great. But historically, you have to have been here for the development of the idea of the PAC: promises were made (national touring acts, ballets, musicals, big name concerts, restaurants flooding into the area, full hotels, the “think of the children” argument, etc.) and while the black box can be filled by a local theatre group and comedy club acts – the 1000 seat theatre sits empty (and, btw, nothing appropriate “for the children” yet either). Frankly, a “beautiful” 100 seat facility could have been built with a lot less and still accommodated these acts and we’d have the same result we’re sitting with today. Touring the place is NOT going to make me feel better- the fact that I can stop by any time and take a tour shows me that its not being used to its full potential – which makes me feel worse, not better. The “it takes time” argument is a non-starter for me: this is why we (the citizens) hired a “professional” to get this up and running, and that person was on the payroll for nearly a year before this thing opened (and if you look a year out from today: Nothing planned for next year either for “touring” acts). Take an unbiased look at the event calendar for the PAC-and tell us, with this history in mind, that our concerns/criticisms aren’t justified. Yes its beautiful. Its also empty more often than not. I appreciate your comedians coming in and putting on shows. But paying $20 and sitting in a “beautiful” $20 million theatre and laughing when I could see the same show for $10 in a bar in Mankato and NOT had to pay for the $20M facility, well, you see what I mean.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:46 am
You aren’t gonna see the same show in Mankato because the comedians are of different caliber that come to the blackbox. And driving 90min to Mankato to save $10 on admission is like stepping over a dollar to save a dime. BPAC didnt hire me to bring in comedy. I’m a customer that rents the room one weekend a month. Not all acts are booked out a year in advanced. Ralphie May was booked 2 months out and he SOLD OUT the 1000 seat room. As far as children shows go, from what I have heard, a childrens theater group will be coming in this Fall.
You seem to think this venue needs to make money right out of the blocks. Like any business, it takes time to build a client base. Most businesses lose money thier first 2 years before turning a profit. Its the nature of business.
You pay taxes for a lot of things that arent getting done. Why do you focus on this one inparticular?
May 7th, 2009 at 7:55 am
Mike,
Whit already stated many reasons why. Not only is this thing a $20 million expense but it was originally slated for private development. When that fell through, the city took the project over and nothing really has been done yet.
1. Why would the city decide to take something over that was passed up by the private sector? This is not fire or police protection, this is an unnecessary tax burden brought onto the public without much support (19 people of 20 at a Planning Commission meeting were ignored when they voiced their opposition to the plan).
2. Why wasn’t the project taken to public vote? Why did the City Council get to make a decision of this magnitude without the opportunity for the public to say whether or not they felt it should happen?
3. When a projected $300,000 loss for the year has been eclipsed in the first quarter after the management company has had a year to get its act together, it’s a little difficult to say that it’s just growing pains.
4. We don’t focus on this one problem in particular, far from it. While you may not be following along as closely as some, this site and its users have documented many more serious tax burdens and poor decisions made by the Burnsville City Council over the course of the last year or so than I’m sure the City Council wants anyone to know about.
I’m thinking about compiling a list of the issues, the broken promises, and the quotes made by the City Council (especially the mayor) when it comes time for the next mayoral election. While newspapers have covered this information in the past, there is no real public archive of exactly what was said in a digestible format like it is here (the newspapers want you to pay for archived issues). It will certainly be interesting to watch as the public looks to become more informed next time around and finds out that the mayor says and does a lot of things that directly contradict what she said only weeks earlier.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Mike: You miss my point: I wouldn’t travel to Mankato to see your shows. I just wince at the fact that I had to help pay for an empty building to justify bringing your show here, when I could have seen it in a local bar just as easily.
But, since you mention the quality of comedians at Mankato and BPAC are different (and therefore justify a higher ticket price) here’s an example:
Friday, June 5 & Saturday, June 6
8:30 p.m.
Headliner John Bush – As seen on: Thomas Crown Affair, Law and Order, Comedy Central Presents… and Conan O’Brian!
Featuring Dennis Anton on Friday & Shannan Paul on Saturday
[From Tav on the Ave, Mankato. Ticket price: $10]
November, 2009 at BPAC. John Bush (headliner) with Elaine Thompson
[Ticket price: $20]
Yes, Yes, I know, the warm up acts are different, but in Mankato you also get three comedians for the lower price, with the same “headliner.”
I’m not picking on you. I just wanted to make the point that the same show could have been seen at a local bar without taxpayers paying up the wazoo to bring culture to our fair city.
Also, the PAC is not the only focus of this blog. Take a look around. Bill and the commenters are perfectly willing to rail on other issues AND willing to offer praise when its due. Its not all negative, and its not all about the PAC.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Mike, I think the others have answered much better than I can, but I will throw in my two pennies worth.
First, thank you for bringing quality acts to the PAC. If the professional that was hired to run the place was bringing in the same acts to fill the main stage, many of these comments would indeed be without merit. That is not the case however.
You yourself said you are not an employee of the BPAC. In fact, you are doing someone elses job. It should make you nervous that the place is loosing as much money as it is. At some point there will be a public outcry, and you and the Chameleon Theatre Group may both loose your 25 million dollar public venues, or see your costs rise. Personally, I think that sucks. If the people running the place were doing thier job, the whole place would see events on a daily/weekly/monthly schedule that justify the money spent.
I have no doubt that your comedians are great, but it has been pointed out in this thread, and others, that the cost to see them at BPAC is higher than other venues. The same goes for the acts on the main stage (George Jones is a great example). This is blatantly different than the things said when they were proposing and building this thing. Private companies backed out because it was cost prohibitive and the mayor and council stepped in and used public money to build and maintain something that “business” people said would lose money. Who do you think was correct? As Bill said, its already lost more this year than we were told it would lose all year.
If the city has to downsize the police force and the fire department, and cut back on other “essential” services, because they need to spend 1 million bucks a year to keep the doors open, is that truly a good thing?
The employees should be friggen great to work with. The place has more about half a dozen more employees than it needs, a full time manager, and a professional promotion staff/company.
Lastly, why can I see better concerts for less money at Mystic Lake, Treasure Island, Fine Line, First Ave, etc, etc, etc. Oh, and if you are unfamiliar with the area, Mystic Lake is not exactly an exhausting drive.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Mike, the facts of the matter are that the main 1,000 seat theatre is empty the majority of the time and with on average 2-3 shows per month booked in this space, is the reason why we are losing money hand over fist.
When you book these comedians and sell out the 100 seat theatre, why not have them in the main theatre and have the potential to sell more seats than 100 generating more revenue for everyone?
If I am not mistaken, the last comedian you booked, Sal Demoro or something like that, cancelled a show or more due to lack of ticket sales.
I also beleive that the Mystic Lake Performance Venue is killing the PAC and from a concert perspective the Zoo Series is also eating the PACs lunch. Please book more comedy acts in the main theatre and sell them out, you have the opportunity for nearly 8 weekend nights a month in the main theatre to sell out a 1,000 seat theatre, chop, chop, get busy.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:57 am
To add one thing I forgot, but TL jumped in for me. The Zoo.
To me, the reasons for being so critical are:
1. The public had no say in the building of the place. It was built and we are stuck with it.
2. The lies about the cost of upkeep. The place is loosing money at a rate of 3 to 4 times what we were told.
3. The lies and misinformation about how the place is doing.
4. The total lack of urgency in promoting and filling the place.
I 100% agree with your statement that most businesses lose money the first two years. There is a big difference between the ones that fold in those two years and the ones that stay open.
1. A tireless driven type A personality to push through the hard times. Someone with a true stake in the game who is betting on the success of the venture.
2. Movitivation to make the place a success. I see more advertisements and flyers/street signs for Burnsville Blaze sports than I do for the BPAC events. This is horrible. Someone should be out shamelessly promoting this place. I have detailed this in other posts and threads, I wont repeat it here.
3. A true understanding of what the first two years will look like. If you know your business will loose 600k the first two years and you plan accordingly, you will be long gone if you loose 2+ Million dollars in those two years.
I want the PAC to succeed as much as anyone, but the peopel running the show right now are driving it to failure.
May 7th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Mike? MIKE!!? Come Back! {See, this is what galls me – on the surface, Mike’s makes some points – but dig a little, and throw the BS flag, and voila!… Crickets.} Its the same thing with the This Week interview of Bill. Jeff A. makes jabs about fact checking and professional journalism, when the truth of the matter is that Bill and the non-journalists on this site can (and do) turn up more history and verifiable facts to supplement and/or oppose the light treatment of “news” [insert air quotes here] stories in the local traditional press – and NOTHING should be keeping the local press from making those same points.
May 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Geez, Whit, he just posted this morning and it’s not even noon yet. Chill. :)
May 7th, 2009 at 10:12 am
okay. Okay. Point taken. (See Mr. Whit – I CAN admit when I am wrong!)
May 7th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Because I can’t sit in front of a computer all day waiting for people to respond to blogs. I have things to do too outside of cyberspace. We can sit here all day and beat a dead horse honestly. In regards to comedian John Bush working BPAC in Fall and Mankato next month. What he does in a small venue is NOT what you would see in a larger theater venue. He’s got many acts and works longer in a larger venue. Guys like him tailor their act based on the venue and demographic. FYI.. Blackbox holds 150 seats. Renting the large 1000 room is a different animal all together. I’m looking at more household name acts to possibly bring in to the larger room but I am growing my business slowly and plan on working up to the larger room.
To answer the question about last months ‘cancelations’. It was comedian Carl Lee and I made a decision to reduce the show schedule due to the Easter and Passover Holiday.
May 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Thought Leader, don’t you think the 1000-seat theater probably costs a bit more to rent than the black box? If Mike can’t sell enough tickets to cover his costs of renting it, it doesn’t matter if he can sell more tickets overall than he can in the smaller space.
Personally, I wish Mike a lot of luck and I’m glad he’s giving the PAC his business. I also appreciate that he took the time to come on here and give an opinion from a different vantage point.
May 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Tim, I agree with you, but to me, thats like saying “Build it and they will come.”
Its the job of the BPAC management and promoters to fill the space. Perhaps they should fire the current manager and promoters and hire Mike? He has done more this morning to promote the PAC than I have seen in the last several months.
May 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Tim, while I beleive that the cost to rent the 1,000 seat theatre is more than the 100 seat theatre, the 1,000 seat theatre sits there empty, has nearly the same fixed operating costs of VenuWorks management, ticket sales, would require a few more ushers, bartenders etc for a main theatre performace. So I beleive the incremental cost to put a show in in the main theatre vs the black box theatrer is minimal. The city of Burnsville and VenuWorks should make it more attractive to potential acts to use the main theatre. This goes to the parking in the HOC point made by Witt, get the traffic visible to people leveraging these storefronts, retail establishments and the PAC. Right now it has the reputation of a Ghost Town with 2-3 acts a month in the main theatre.
The fixed costs and depreciation associated with this city owned facilty are going to be the death of it!!
Right now the main theatre in the PAC is a $19 Million dollar depreaciating boat anchor around the citizens of Burnsviles necks in a 9″, Million Dollar Pool of Water in Nicollet Commons Park’s water feature.
May 7th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@Thought Leader: You’ve lost me — are you saying the PAC should charge Mike less to book that space? Remember, he doesn’t work for them, he pays them to use the black box. I know that the main theater sits there empty and it should be used, but I’m not sure how that’s Mike’s problem.
@Chad: I think you’re on to something there.
May 7th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Tim, I think what TL is saying is that the BPAC management and Tim should work together to use the larger theatre if it is empty and he has an act that will sell more than the 150ish tickets available for the small theatre. Some sort of deal where he would pick up the incremental cost of the added ushers/bartenders/whatever, and they would let him use the big theatre to get some traffic going. I hate to put words in his mouth, but thats what it sounds like to me.
The obvious problem is that 150 people in a 1000 seat theatre would be a cavernous dead audience compared to 150 people in a 150 seat theatre. It would probably only appeal to them when they have an act they are sure they could sell several hundred tickets for.
I was somewhat serious about hiring Mike. The place needs an aggressive person who is willing to shamelessly promote the place. Get fluff pieces on the local news, call in favors to bring in concerts, leverage local relationships and partnerships to sell tickets and advertising, etc.
May 7th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Yes, VenuWorks should charge Mike less for the main theatre or move to more of a % of ticket sales model so the risk can be mitigated between the parties. Anything to get more events in the main theatre even it they break even from a city perspective they need to get more than 3 acts per month in the main theatre.
May 7th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I am a laid off airline employee looking for work. I have spoken to them about being involved with marketing/promoting. They would love to have me but its not in the budget at the moment. I have honestly thought about volunteering my time there as well because I really like the venue and the staff.
I wouldn’t put my business’s reputation and survivability on the line at BPAC if I didn’t think it was gonna work. I have researched this for over 18months from when I first heard about the groundbreaking and I believe it will be a valuable investment for me.
May 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Mike,
For the record, most of us here are against animal cruelty…unless it is tasty tasty meat cruelty! Delicious!
May 7th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Mike, you more or less made my point for me. They should not have anyone in charge of the BPAC whose livelihood does not rest on the actual performance of the BPAC. If you were the owner of the place, you would be busting your ass to fill that main theatre. Some dude who gets his salary either way, or some company in IA that gets paid either way has a whole different view of the deal. This should be 100% pay for performance, and the person running it should succeed or fail with the BPAC, much like you will succeed for fail with your business venture.
I have no doubt that from your perspective the BPAC is goign to work. The fact that it is loosing millions of dollars with no relief in sight (again, on pace to loose 3 to 4 times the projected amount for year 1), does not hurt you in any way. The taxpayers are the ones who foot the bill.
I dont know of any private company that can operate this way. Even start ups that plan on running a deficit would be looking for new partners, things to sell, venture capital, etc to cover the huge actual vs projected shortfall.
A solution might be for the director of the place to come out and release some info to the public, or give some factual info on what is in the works. Instead we see lies published as news about how it made money in the first month/quarter. That is very disheartening. The first step to solving a problem is admitting there is a problem, and in your eyes, there is no problem. I actually think the mayor and the council know there is a problem, but they dont have the integrity to admit it at this point.
May 7th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I never stated that. I said that I believe the venue will work and bring quality entertainment to the community.
Maybe I’m just more patient than others…
May 7th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Book. Acts. Now.
There is no other solution.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Bookers/Promoters BUY the room.. for example… Outback Concerts in Nashville rented the large room for Ralphie May and Bill Engvall.. There is no booker per si in the arts center. Not sure the arrangement with the Theater company’s. I know Chameleon is selling out all thier shows.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Why do city councils do this? Why do they waste money like this? Are they that incompetent? I just don’t get it.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Jimbo, I wish I knew the answer to your question. The only answer that I can give you is that specific city council members think they know more or better than the citizens and take these actions. Even after tremendous feedback given to council members to reconsider these spending decisions in light of the economy, in light of the general publics positions of these boondoggles, they ignored the citizens and they do not feel it necessary to have validated support of the majority of the residents to confirm their position by putting the concept to a vote or referendum. In the case of Burnsville, we had three council members go off and go it alone even with hundreds of petitions signed. Now, they need to be held accountable for the ramifications of their decision to spend tens of millions at the expense of needed services such as roads, police, and fire services. A very sad situation.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Not only that, but I believe the poor local spending decisions impact receipt of other funds, such as state and federal grants. Why would the state or federal govt give Burnsville money when it makes such poor decisions with the surplus it had during “good” years. Why reward that sort of poor fiscal behavior by giving Burnsville “free” state or federal money? Now we aren’t getting grants for cops or from the state arts tax or from the federal stimulus for “shovel ready” projects. If I were on a grant committee, I wouldn’t give us any money either.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
I am actually very tempted to go check out Reefer Madness, come to think of it.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Déjà vu and I say “boo!” Bill Engvall has been booked to perform at the PAC — yet AGAIN — in March 2010. The center has barely managed to book any acts yet elects to book a repeat act a little over a year later? How hard did they have to work to scratch out the old dates and plop in the new? Now THAT’s comedy!
August 24th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
This blog is worthless, instead of talking about how horrible and wrong everything they’re doing is, why dont you all do something about it? Yet, youre to busy “blogging”. Wow. I am sure everyone around you is proud, and is supporting you in your choices to “blog” everyday? Some of these people at the PAC have to put in 16 hour days, while youre sitting at home, glued to the computer. More then half the comments on here is about the city and there poor fiscal behavior, not about the PAC. So why dont you take this up with the City Council of Burnsville, not the PAC. The Burnsville Perforing Arts Center is bringing alot of attention to “your” city. Which means, it might bring attention to other buisness, maybe places where you work. Next time you “post” another comment, think “What is this doing to make change?”.
August 24th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
SandyLS, and what exactly is your role in “making change”?
August 24th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I would like to talk about the change SandyLS is making. Does she make a lot of change? Does she carry around a lot of singles? Maybe a couple of fives? Or does she concentrate on making change with coins? Making change is hard but if we all work together to exchange equal amounts of money we can make a difference (well, not really a difference because it is equal give and take…).
August 24th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
SandyLS, what are these people at the BPAC doing for 16 hours per day? Please be specific.
Are they doing it on a volunteer basis, or are they being paid for it? Again, please be specific.
August 24th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
People have tried. It would appear that both VenuWorks and Burnsville itself (staff and council) feel that VenuWorks is doing a bang up job.
OMFG you have me totally pegged. I have no life and I don’t do anything all day other than this website. Sorry if I didn’t make it clear that I don’t have a real job and I don’t have a family or friends.
They’re directly related.
We have. I think it’s time for you to do some more reading on the topic. BTW, the City Council should have complete control over the PAC’s management, thus the discussion.
It’s all negative attention. Poor fiscal management, empty seats, lame artists, padded scheduling, racist douchebags on stage. I could go on but you get the idea.
Considering that this topic has been echoed by mainstream media and is read daily by the Burnsville staff (at a minimum) I have a feeling that it is affecting change.
August 24th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Jeez, if people are really putting in 16 hour days trying to make this thing work then the problem is worse than we thought. What a waste of someone’s time and energy to have as little to show for it as they do!
And I’ve read and seen more thoughtful discourse on this blog than anywhere else regarding this issue. Keep it up.
August 24th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
a lot = two words.
there = a place
they’re = they are, as in
also, most of the comments on here are about the city and….
the rest isn’t worth my time.
August 24th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
oops
August 24th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
No worries, I fixed it :)
August 24th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Geez, does this mean we’re picking up the tab for overtime in addition to all the other ways the citizens are funding this money sucker?!
August 24th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
That SandyLS isn’t me.
August 25th, 2009 at 9:10 am
“This blog is worthless, instead of talking about how horrible and wrong everything they’re doing is, why dont you all do something about it?”
Dear SandyLS: I apologize that it took so long for me to respond to your post, but you see, I’ve been busy the past few days, and I’ve just now had a chance to sit down and collect my thoughts. In case you are curious about what I was so engaged in that I was not able to reply immediately, I was working, helping out some children whose mom is dying of cancer, and taking care of my family as well. In there I also managed to read several newspapers a day to keep up with current events, and read a few chapters of a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel (which frankly, wasn’t all that good, in my opinion, but that’s neither here nor there). But, silly me, you are not interested in reading or knowing all of that, and I’m not tooting my horn here, because the regular posters know, that’s just not me :), but I just thought you’d like to know a little bit about who you are talking to/about. The people on this blog are not a bunch of negative nellies sitting in their basements, blogging all day long. Maybe you didn’t take the time to read the previous posts on the topic of the PAC. Maybe you’re busy, just like me. But if you had, here, all in one place for your convenience, are just some of the suggestions you would have read about:
1. Hire a promoter familiar with the Twin Cities market and artists, such as Sue McLean, who has managed to fill similar sized venues in this economy.
2. Visit with Lakeville, which has a smaller PAC, but a full calendar of events, to see what types of similar projects would work in Burnsville.
3. Market shows wisely. Many promoters are using blogs, twitter, and other low cost marketing strategies to generate interest in shows.
4. If the current management company for the PAC is not filling the calendar, and is not forthcoming with a strategy on what it is doing to remedy the situation, it should be replaced with a company that can. In this economy, where service providers are scrambling for business, we may be able to negotiate a good contract with a high quality company. Why not use the economy for our advantage for once?
5. Get something big (i.e. national, newsworthy) going in the Proscenium Theatre. Get people talking about it. I’m not talking about some Christmas play that hasn’t even been written yet, get someone that is slam dunk famous that has not played locally for a while. Then promote the heck out of it AND have the calendar full for after the event for the next 6 months, so that while people are learning about the facility for the slam dunk huge performance, the PAC is getting free advertising from the local news crews, you can also sneak in some free promotion of what is going on in the space for the next 6 months.
Dearest Sandy – these are just some of the ideas for the PAC that have come out on this blog, and I have expanded on some of them as well for your convenience to get you more detail, and I’m sure there were more that I missed. But frankly, the posters here are not professional PAC operators (there are some people getting paid a pretty penny to perform that task), and what you are asking for is, that in addition to our tax money being used to pay the professionals and expect results, we (taxpayers/blog posters) now have to come up with ideas for the professionals to implement, and we have (see above). The people at the City/pac DO read this blog. Still the main stage sits empty. When its put in those terms, wouldn’t you agree that its a bit frustrating? This, on top of the sales job (put forth by Compass/VenuWorks and the City) to build the facility, and taxes being raised to pay for it and the expanded budget to run it, and the main stage sits empty for months? Sandy, don’t you agree that some frustration is warranted?
I sense from your post that you are frustrated with the situation as well. Perhaps you know someone who works at the PAC and you feel that they are getting criticized overmuch. So you posted a comment about it. That’s fair. You posted about a situation that had made you upset. No different from what the other posters are doing here on a multitude of topics, from local government, to restaurants, to people who don’t use their turn signals, to roundabouts, to whatever topic Bill puts up. But generally, mixed in with the frustration, are ideas to make the situation better. Just like there were about the PAC had you taken the time to read what has been written here on the topic.
Sorry for the long post, Bill.
August 25th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
My husband and I have only been to the PAC once. We saw Sweeney Todd because his uncle runs a community theater during the summer. The place was really nice and the show was great. We enjoyed our time there.
One complaint was that you could hear the rain on the roof. It was pouring the night we went there, and you could hear that. Another thing is that I’m glad we didn’t buy the tickets through Ticketmaster online or we would have been charged over $12 worth of inconvenience charges–which was almost the price of one ticket.
I thought it might be nice to go here again some evening, but to your point, I have not seen anything coming up that would interest me.
August 30th, 2009 at 9:31 am
They also need a Web designer. The calendar sucks, you have to go to each area, instead of a running date list.
It also needs to be updated much more often. I know of an event coming there in Oct. but still isn’t on the calendar.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Reading Whit o’ wit I first have to say I am sorry to hear about your acquaintance with cancer. That must be hard for the kids.
To your point about the PAC, I completely agree with your assessment that something should be done, it should not just be talked about. Though your ideas are great, the bottom line is your ideas probably won’t help much. You may be a wee bit optimistic that this thing could even work with a great management team. It’s doubtful. The ingredients you need are population, product and local culture. There is not an “arts culture” in the southern metro, at least not enough people to make a big difference. And where do they go after the event? Hooters?
Minneapolis and St. Paul comprise about a million people with surrounding suburbs and can barely support art centers and certainly need to draw on tax assistance from a larger property base. Burnsville is out of its league.
And as for product, sure you can bring in some names that draw people in but what big name is going to go to Burnsville given the recent “success”? The product is going to be too hard to lure in and too expensive for the population.
My idea for the PAC, which most likely will not be adopted, is to try different types of explosives on the thing and at least stop the bleeding caused by operating costs. There is a chance to recover some of the building costs by getting Hollywood to film some B action explosion movie in and around the building. At least a few shots.
Let’s look out ten years. Realistically what is this place going to look like? Some future city council is going to have to come to terms with this white elephant. Why not just call it a mistake and move on. And promise to never do stupid stuff like this again, this wasn’t just stupid, it was arrogant.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Just for conversation, how could Burnsville be upgraded? How would we get good restaurants, better shopping, beautiful landscaping, smarter schools, more participation in the arts? What would it take? (One rule – “money” can’t be the answer)
August 31st, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Fuck over smaller businesses and ignore their needs while bending to meet the needs of the big boys.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Sandy I think you nailed it on the head. The Burnsville City Council looked around and said what are we going to do to upgrade Burnsville and went for one big expensive idea and they crossed their fingers. It didn’t work and it was doomed to fail from the start. Most residents that cared knew it wouldn’t work. And they did it anyway.
It’s tough to upgrade a city. It needs to be done continuously and when you fall behind as badly as Burnsville has it takes some quality leadership to get you back. I can tell you what I’d do but I doubt it would happen. People move too often today and life doesn’t last long. If you start today it might be reasonable to expect a good upgrade in 15-20 years. The first thing is a negative. Don’t try to be something you aren’t. Burnsville is a suburb that has a lot of lower cost housing as well as some high end housing. Rebuild the city with a vision of what you want it to become based on the residents that are there.
Create a plan. Put together a 20 year city plan that includes small continuous upgrades, one area at a time. If it means changing the roads a bit, so be it. Engage the citizens.
Lower property taxes. Nothing spawns business like low taxes. But how do we pay for the all the stuff we want with lower taxes? We will by being business friendly. More businesses mean more jobs, more spending, more things to do, more visitors.
Buy and destroy housing that attracts those that destroy cities. It sounds a bit racist but really it’s not if you just calm down. Cheap housing attracts more people that just don’t care. Larger cities are better equipped to deal with those that don’t have much and public transportation is better as well.
Invest in ways to make the city more efficient. For example the south metro in Dakota county recently combined emergency services and greatly lowered costs. That leaves more money to lower taxes. It brings in more business. Creates jobs. People are happy.
Be patient. Things take time. But elect the right people. That’s the key. This council has to go. Most of them anyway.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:26 am
Sandy,
I dont know how to “upgrade” Burnsville, but I can tell you that things like lower property taxes, better schools, and lower crime rates are all important steps imho.
As Jimbo said, it starts with leadership and a plan. I wish I knew the answers.
I will disagree with Jimbo on one point. Having attended concerts at the Zoo, and looked around at who was there, there is support someplace for “Arts” in the south metro. The crowds are incredibly diverse, and I would say a pretty good portion of the crowd is not there due to any ties to a particular band. What they have created in the summer music series at the Zoo should be a model for the PAC. A starting point at the very least. I confess I dont know how much money they make off the concerts, but they are all sold out, in a similar size venue, with much more basic seating and amenities than the PAC.
September 26th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Well I just made my first trip to the PAC. Realize I am from Eagan so I don’t have a personal stake in this building other than I would like to see our good neighbors to the south do well. One general comment, OMG!
The mayor as well as any council person that supported this project should resign today. On the spot. But rather than dwell on the past lets see what we can do. I hear you Sandy, yes there are people in the south suburbs that support the arts, but just not enough people. You need population density. Realize you have to fill that huge center at least a couple weeks out of each month. There just aren’t enough people in Burnsville and not enough that have the money to spend on such events throughout the year. Also the zoo is a state funded project and is not intended for just concerts and arts. The zoo is a multi functional facility. People from all over the state and from out of town come to the zoo as they do the Mall of America. Burnsville can’t duplicate this kind of traffic.
First let’s start with a few facts. Each Burnsville family of four:
1) Paid $1600 for the building
2) Will pay $200 per year to support the building, forever. Rising each year.
That is a heap of change. If I look at the commercial viability of the building you would need to generate about $3 million per year to make the location viable and I would consider $3 million to be way too little to take on that kind of risk. The city council projected $500,000 per year at the start which means if all the revenue was profit it would take 40 years to get your money back. In fact none of the revenue is profit. It was all there on paper. The place was projected to fail from day one. No one looked at it as failure however. I can’t see given the information why it was built. It can only be terrible leadership and lack of understanding of business principles.
I stopped by today, Saturday, and the place was empty. Who would ever rent that place? Who rents places that have the feel of emptiness? Also it is built on a street with a grade of about 5%. Unless you are in good shape you are going to get winded walking to or from the center and god bless the handicapped.
So what is the obvious thing to do? I would sell it to a commercial enterprise or non-profit. The city is going to take a heavy loss but they are not going to be able to run this as it should be run to salvage something. Burnsville residents deserve to have an owner that can run the place right. If they lack the political will to sell I would:
1) Fill the place with corporate company meetings. Even if you have to offer space for free at first. You need to get people there.
2) Get schools to have concerts there. Get people involved with the center
3) Get rid of ticket master and generate your own ticket sales on a website. You don’t need ticket master.
4) Offer extremely good deals to bands and orchestras. Offering it free with a smaller percent on sales as a way to get people going to the center. This place needs to be known as a destination.
5) Offer discounted tickets for residents. Big time discounting for the next two years.
Again I want to say that this is not my first choice. My first choice is to sell it to a private concern. The city can’t make it work. They aren’t in this business. But if they insist they are going to face 20 years or more of losses as well as an angry taxpaying public and in the end they will fail. You need the right management and the right cost structure to make this work. Burnsville lacks both of these, sorry to say.
I hope Burnsville all of the best and I feel your pain but I can’t feel sorry for you if you keep your mayor in power and let these city council members continue in their role. You need to stand up and demand action. Selling the place is the right alternative.
Let me make this prediction. The council and mayor will not sell at first. They will continue to hold on to a false dream with false hopes. After dealing with an angry public and a failing building they will be forced to liquidate under much worse circumstances within five years. Businesses will be failing all around it. The new owner will produce a scaled down version of the arts center with a better cost structure. Burnsville will be left with something at least, and something that might work but just not work they way the envisioned. So why not start the process now? Do the right thing, City Council. Acknowledge your mistake and move on. Sell. Sell now. Lead.
September 26th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Jimbo – Did you just walk through the PAC? Visit the Art Gallery?
While I tend to agree with your concept to sell the PAC, who is going to want to buy the PAC after having seen the disaster that it is as well as the ability to make any money with the competition in the metro / south metro area? At least two developers backed out of building the PAC to begin with before Mayor Kautz said the citizens will foot the $23+ Million Dollar bill and $300K annual operating losses. Lets say there is an interested party that would buy the PAC, what would they be willing to pay? $10 Million for the PAC and parking structure, they get the land too?? The city is still on the hook for the $16+ Million in Bond debt so we sell the PAC for $10 Million and write off the remaining $6 Million in debt and the Mayor, Gustafson and Workman resign immediately from their respective governement positions for being terrible stewards of the citizens of Burnsville’s tax dollars? Any way you look at it we are hosed as citizens of Burnsville for the next decade or even longer due to the irresponsible actions of these three city officials!!
September 26th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
This is quite the mess. $10 million even seems a bit much. Maybe $5 million? Maybe a lease? They can’t blame this mess on the recession. This is just buck naked incompetence. Even if Burnsville residents are stuck with the bill they would be a lot better off having the place run right and they would get a little money back if they sold it. Right now the city will most likely run that place poorly and things could get worse. The buildings are nice and the view of Minneapolis, at least today, was great. I walked through an art hallway, wouldn’t call it an Art Gallery. Did I miss the Gallery? People were playing a bean bag game on the front lawn and had something plugged into the city light fixture with an extension cord draped across the sidewalk. I found the use of the land today a little bit humorous (sorry this is definitely not funny). I walked across the street to the strip mall which was boring but the surrounding town homes had nice curb appeal. I didn’t see anything worth stopping to see really. Certainly the area residents weren’t shopping there. I own a retail business and I wouldn’t locate in that strip mall. Wouldn’t even do it for free. The sidewalk made of bricks should become a maintenance nightmare soon when it snows and the city brings out the sidewalk plows. There just weren’t any people around. Even Caribou was nearly empty. The Mediterranean restaurant Burnsville wooed from Eagan was nice, but I don’t know how they can pay the rent unless they cut an extremely good deal.
Who would buy it? I’m not sure in this market but I am certain at the right price you can get a good buyer in there. It’s a new facility. I was just at a St Paul Chamber Orchestra concert at Wooddale Church in Eden Prairie and they had a pretty good crowd. A church in Eden Prairie has found a way to attract concerts, certainly Burnsville can do something more. There is always the slippery slope of hope. There has to be an answer out there. What would you do if you were suddenly given a brand new art center and you found it was empty? Obviously it has to be filled up with something and fast. I looked at the calendar online and almost cried. Serious? Is it that empty?
The city council should get a citizens committee together of local (qualified) people that should hammer out some options for the building and do it now. People experienced in real life businesses should be preferred. I just took a quick shot at it here but there may be some good ideas out there. There are some good minds out there that just may be up to the challenge. But the time is now to do something. Waiting another year to see if it suddenly fills up is definitely not the answer.
December 2nd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
To all the ‘nay’ sayers of the PAC in Burnsville. How many of you were at Lori Line’s concert last night????? Completely “SOLD OUT” auditorium!! The program lasted nearly 2.5 hours!!!! The music was awesome and the spectators were so enthusied!!!!
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Excellent, I am glad you enjoyed it. If I am not mistaken, this was at least her second show at the PAC. Now we just need to invite her back 10 times per month to sell out the joint to break even for the month!! When was the last time the main theatre was sold out?
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:28 am
Satisfied: I’m glad you joined the forum here – It will be interesting to get your point of view, and I’m glad you had a nice evening. It doesn’t surprise me that Line would put on a good show. I’m wondering if you’ve attended other events at the PAC as well, or was this your first experience? If so, what were your previous experiences like? If not, what led you to choose Lori Line over purchasing tickets for say, George Jones? Looking forward on the PAC calendar, what other events to you anticipate attending?