No horn honking originally uploaded by Jeremy Keith
A South Metro resident contacted me the other day with concerns about a decrease in public safety due to Iraq War protesters on the corner of Burnsville Parkway and Nicollet. This citizen felt that the protesters were tying up police resources and distracting drivers by encouraging them to honk in support of their cause which was a position which the Burnsville PD agrees with. After reading the information provided and witnessing the event myself, I am more concerned with the fact that the Burnsville Police Department is seriously wasting their time even observing this event and counting how many drivers are in support of the protest than anything else.
The Burnsville Police Department has said that they believe the honking causes distractions for both passing motorists and pedestrians and that it creates a problem with noise for those people who reside on 129th. The Burnsville PD has gone so far as to use the complaints of a single citizen who approached the officer stationed to observe the protest and their own hunch that the protesters are causing a distraction in order to justify their keeping an officer there to watch people lawfully and peacefully protest something which they do not believe is right.
I don’t know about you but the fact that a Burnsville police officer is stationed at the corner of Nicollet and Burnsville Parkway just so that the PD can record the fact that 68 horns were honked is a bit more than I can stomach. Perhaps instead of concerning themselves with that happy horseshit, they should be standing at the corner of 126th and Nicollet and counting how many people actually use that dangerous and pointless crosswalk to help and mitigate the cost of an actual study which might not be necessary if only a handful of people actually ever use the damn thing.
The Chief of Police, in his e-mail stated, “We are continuing to monitor it because we feel it is a safety issue and we will take the appropriate steps if we deem intervention is appropriate.” Problem for Burnsville lies in the fact that the protesters have been cited before and immediately called in the ACLU who has informed the city that horn honking is a protected free speech right and that there is nothing the city can really do about it–for now.
Now, while the chief feels that this is indeed an issue which needs constant monitoring, I am sure that some of you will find some serious fault in their execution of the plan especially when the ACLU is involved. Because of the involvement of the ACLU and prior case law proving that horn honking is a protected right, the city’s attorney has to keep up with the latest and greatest about the protesters so that they can swoop in and cite people for honking their horns to end the menace to society that all those people pose. It’s my suggestion that the Burnsville PD focus less on counting horns and more on protecting the public from the real dangers like drug dealers selling heroin at the corner of CR-11 and MN-13 causing teenagers to OD.
What do you think about all of this? Is the Burnsville PD right to waste vital resources and plop and officer there who apparently has nothing better to do than count how many passing motorists honk their horns? Should the Burnsville PD be doing something else instead–perhaps chasing down drug dealers and other more violent criminals which seem to be cropping up in larger numbers? Whatever you think about this issue go ahead and comment on and let’s hear what you have to say!
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July 2nd, 2009 at 9:35 am
Honking is free speech. Hilarious.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am
They should make them move a few blocks to the north and see if our lovely Mayor has anything to say about it!
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:53 am
Just out of curiosity………. did that ONE complaint come from mayor Kautz??? If the police department lost two officers do to budget problems why are the police waisting time with this free speech issue and start policing the “trails of Burnsville” and tagging the trail idiots with their unleashed dogs?
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:35 am
Tim W, great idea! I promise they would get more publicity and press if they moved down to Nicollet and 126th St right in front of Jo Jo’s and the Nicollet Commons Park.
Almost certainly police officers, and possibly an appearance by the mayor, which would lead to some sort of media coverage.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 am
Chad, only if Burnsville made a press release for them to reprint.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Honking should absolutely not be free speech. Car horns are for emergencies to notify other drivers that there’s a problem. Much like Dakota County’s use of tornado sirens, it only serves to inure drivers to honking. Honking for a protest is distracting to other drivers, and it serves absolutely no purpose, as it doesn’t change anything. Can you imagine taking that to washington?
“Well Mr. President, we had 68 honks at our protest, so clearly something needs to be done. What? Oh, um, we only cause 3 accidents with our startling honking and distracting other drivers, no real damage though, the mayor got out of the way just in time while she was crossing the street not at a stoplight.”
A case in Washington:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2009/06/judge-says-horn-honking-is-not-free-speech-neighbors-dispute-leads-to-arrest.html
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 am
Oh give me a fucking break! I realize that this is Minnesota where God forbid we honk unless it’s the apocalypse but in the rest of the civilized world (you know, the areas were you can buy beer until 2:30 AM in gas stations and grocery stores?!) people honk all the fucking time and life progresses normally.
Now, that said, this is not a fucking distraction at all. In fact, with the way those god awful lights are timed and the amount of traffic that sits idle, this does nothing worse than the people who are posting to Twitter about Nicollet and Burnsville Pkwy traffic sucking while fiddling with their stereos to pass the time.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Dawnmarie, in the case you link to, the judge ruled that horn honking done specifically to harass or annoy others isn’t speech. The woman in question was honking her horn for ten minutes straight because she was mad at some people in her neighborhood. The judge said that honking done to convey a specific message in support of something and its meaning is clearly understood — like the people are doing in this case — is a different matter altogether.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:24 am
I would have to agree that honking can be obnoxious when I’m trying to watch “I’m a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here!” and drinking my boxed wine or Coca Cola…but then again I usually do that at home, not next to a busy road with ill-timed stop lights!
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am
I would think that honking in response to a sign that says Honk if you Hate War or some such thing would be considered free speech. I do wonder though if you honk, and it causes an accident, would there be an ramification of that?
You honk, the guy next to you swerves and hits the curb and gets a flat tire?
Dont know. Dont care really. Not sure what good the protests do. The people in congress and the White House were largely elected because they promised to stop the wars……………One can conclude that they either lied, or they became privy to more information that lead to a changing viewpoint and continued hostilities. Although I think that combat troops are largely removed from Iraq as of yesterday, so maybe the protesters can go home now?
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:32 am
And there was a large rise in deployment to Afghanistan, something which will give the Iraq protesters something to follow.
They should have signs up that read, “Honk if the mayor is a bitch.” I think the Burnsville PD would need three cops to count all the honks then.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am
I don’t know about that. I’m against the Iraq war but not against justice for the world vs. the Taliban. Maybe if we had re-focused all those soldiers deployed to Iraq to the Afghanistan campaign we could have dealt with Osama by now?
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
P.S. I’m sad nobody came up with the obvious joke of “no horn honking” in Burnsville.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Mrs. m! I’ve missed you.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 am
We were vacationing in NY…where horn honking is perfectly legal! ;)
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
useless utilization of manpower and wasting tax dollars for 250$ alex!
bb
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
A little birdie told me you were vacationing. Welcome home!
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Counting honks = seriously ridiculous. Let’s hope it’s an intern or clerk counting honks and not an officer.
July 4th, 2009 at 7:54 am
i heard about 25 horn honks yesterday while it took me 25 minutes to drive 2.5 miles on Diversey to Lakeshore Drive in Chicago yesterday, that is 1 honk per minute i think.
In chicago, like Mrs. M notes in NY, honking is perfectly legal. It is also legal for the city of Chicago to have a 4ft x 4ft indentation around a sewer drain blocking the right lane of a narrow 4 lane city street at a major intersection over the July 4 weekend with no one working on it thereby backing up traffic for 1 mile. honking is encouraged in this case.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
honking a horn is to be used to warn or bring attention to others. In some cases it obviously can also used to convey a opinion, i.e. free speech. And in other cases it can be used just to piss people off, which isn’t generally considered free speech.
If it’s a safety issue, then do something about it. Until it’s a safety issue to the citizens of burnsville, then go away and leave them alone. They are effectively harassing the protesters.
If they are really worried, they should just stick an auxiliary kid out there to call in the troops if it gets ugly. They don’t get paid much and the cops can then go do some real work.
July 6th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Mike is right… these protestors are extremely mild and very peaceful and reserved. The honking i have seen is specifically toward the sign requesting support. Recently after the court signed a consent decree requiring the Bville Police to cease arresting people honking in their free speech right the Bville police dept stopped that approach, however the police returned on June 23 and since then and were seen taking photos of the protestors , and also recording car licenses of protestors in a notebook. ??
I honestly am at a loss to know what they possibly are doing except aa) unnecessarily harassing citizens peacefully assembling to demonstrate their free speech rights, and bb) wasting the Burnsville Taxpayers dollars when other much more bad things are happening in Bville.
July 6th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Maybe the foot patrol cops are afraid to work the area by the PAC. Who would risk crossing Nicollet down there, dealing with the hookers or getting caught in the crossfire when the Ramsey County Drug Taskforce makes another sting.
Or worse yet, dying of boredom doing security for a PAC event or making eye contact with Hungry Eyes when she bails on Ansari’s and shows up to try out for a weekday belly dancing gig at the Med Cruise Cafe.
If I were Burnsville P.D. I’d be begging to count car horns too with the anarchists and hellions running rampant around Nicollet and 126th.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Ahh more flattery: http://www.thisweeklive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10338&Itemid=2
July 9th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Bill, you should ask for a percentage of the salaries of the South Metro reporters from the Startrib, Pioneer Press, Thisweek and MNSun for providing content and news topics!!
Want to read about it first??
Read lazylightning.org!!
Then go and read the subpar fluff in these other places, but can say you read it first on lazylighning.org!!
Need to change your subtitle to – The South Metro “Timely News” Source, where credit is always given where due!!
July 9th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I just need to redirect lastweeklive.com to thisweeklive.com and be done with it.
July 9th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
From the article “Hawkins said he ordered traffic–unit officers to monitor horn honking after a June 23 pedestrian accident in the Heart of the City. In that case, a woman was struck and injured while in the marked crosswalk at 126th Street and Nicollet.”
Was there any indication whatsoever when the “pedestrian accident” occurred that it was the result of horn honking or the protests? Also, aren’t these protestors located 2 blocks north of the intersection where the “pedestrian accident”occurred? Also, the protesters are there Tuesdays from 4:30 to 5:30. The “pedestrian accident” according to the same “news” sources, occurred on a Tuesday, true, but at 3:33 p.m. Again, where is the causal connection?
I think the attempt to link the two is weak. A single follow up question to Chief Hawkins would have blown his rationale out of the water. And I’m not even a professional journalist.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:11 am
WTF ….Police are giving tickets if you HONK your horn for PEACE…What a JOKE….They should be taking pictures of people in a bar, being DRUNK & stumbling to their car/truck….Hey police officers GROW UP & LEAVE THIS old man ALONE !!!!!!
July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Another South Metro based blogger sounds off about this issue. You can read it here: http://widewhite.blogspot.com/2009/07/stop-honking.html
July 15th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Citypages has a little blurb on this now, including a video of a Channel 5 news story: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2009/07/man_ticketed_fo.php
July 15th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I love how the Wide White dude actually seems to think that this is more important than the other crime issues in Burnsville, based on the brief discussion in the comments.
July 16th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
**BREAKING NEWS**
Jogger attacked at knifepoint in Burnsville. Wood Park (143rd between Portland and County 11). Attacker dragged jogger “a pretty long way into the woods”, tried to tie her with rope and or tape. She fought him off and ran. Attacker was white, 6 foot plus. Last seen running east. Helicopter currently overhead and K9 units out. Info on Kelly Francis Lorenzo (L3 sex offender living by HOC) was mentioned on police radio (routine for cops to ID any living in area).
You heard it here first!
p.s. Interestingly, Lorenzo lived in that neighborhood when he committed his sex offense if I remember correctly. House backing onto Co. 11.
July 17th, 2009 at 8:20 am
I am waiting for a call back from the Burnsville PD on this issue.
July 17th, 2009 at 8:33 am
I would have checked to see if ThisWeek had a breaking news story on their site, but (1) I’m boycotting their site – maybe decreased web traffic will send message about, ahem, certain photo (mis)usage; and (2) I doubt they’ll publish the story until its been cleared by City Hall, and its just too early yet. Sadly, I bet the police have to spend a lot of time verifying that its not a hoax made up by the victim – like that fake kidnap story last week from the 9 year old boy in North Branch. If true, I await the spin. How many cops could we get instead of an orchestra shell???
July 17th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Sorry about the double posts last night. The first message wasn’t showing up, but that’s probably a function of my cell phone.
From listening to the chatter on the scanner (over the phone) my opinion is that I doubt it was a hoax. Based on her account, she should have had visually confirmed injuries. She stated the attacker had tried to strangle her. The police also located items including rope and tape in the woods near where she said he dragged her. I’m told the person calling 911 was a former/retired/off-duty(not sure) cop that was walking the dog when she ran out.
Bill, if you hear anything back from the police, I would be interested. I live very close by and our neighbor/good friend (female) had jogged by Wood Park about 30 minutes prior to the first dispatch.
I don’t want to wait until next week when This Week/Sun Current and/or the big papers catch on to the story.
July 17th, 2009 at 9:15 am
I am working from home today and will be following up again at 10:30 if I don’t hear anything from them.
July 17th, 2009 at 9:26 am
MSPD, if you don’t mind, I’m curious about the scanner because it sounds like something I’d be interested in. Do you have one, or is there a service/website you access, etc?
July 17th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Tim, my dad has one. He lives down by the south end of Pilot Knob and 50 so quite often I’ll go over there and listen in. I find it fascinating…my wife makes fun of it.
Last night, I was listening to his over the phone. He had called to give us the heads’ up since this was close to our house.
On a side note, I thought I might become a suspect for a second. I was out in front of my house when the helicopter showed up. It immediately circled around and floated right over our place for about a minute. I expect to hear “yeah…we have someone lurking in front of a house down there”, but they were just trying to get their bearings/waiting for the cops on the ground to give them a spotlight.
Anyway, if I find some extra cash or if my dad upgrades, I’ll ignore my wife’s taunts and get one myself.
July 17th, 2009 at 9:42 am
You can find them for as little as $75.
July 17th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Well the scanners required to get south metro need to be digital and you are probably looking at $200+. South Metro moved to digital many months ago.
July 17th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Called at 10:45 and again at 12:30. I got through to a different person (“the sergeant in charge”) but just got his voicemail. I was told by the receptionist that a news release will be going out (oooh goody!) and that it should become available at some point (no ETA was provided as she said it right before she transferred me).
I told the officer that I would call back at 2:00 if I didn’t hear from him. I will get my questions answered and will post them as soon as I hear anything.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I’ve considered purchasing a scanner and putting it online.. however, I know nothing about how scanners work.
It’s trivial for me to take an audio source and put it online; does the scanner automatically scan for an active frequency and lock onto it? Or is there only one major frequency used by all the police/fire/etc stations in the area?
Would anyone be interested in an online scanner? I’m in Savage.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
nc
I dont know much about the legality of all this, but I would want to check and make sure its ok to rebroadcast the info you pull off of a scanner out onto the internet.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Chad, plenty of people do it already. What’s going out over the public airwaves is already owned by, well, the public. If the police don’t want something being rebroadcast then they shouldn’t air it.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Chad – it’s perfectly legal; it’s done all over the place.
http://www.police-scanner.info/
July 18th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
I stand educated.
July 19th, 2009 at 3:02 am
http://www.twincities.com/dakota/ci_12864055
Mayor Kautz, we do not have a gang problem? Seems to me from this story we do. I think an immediate worksession is required.
Cameras in the car held photos of the young men making gang hand signs in different locations, but mainly in their cars.
“Were they planning to drive by somewhere?” Larson asked another officer as he examined the guns: a revolver and a 9mm.
Arrests like this, Larson said, happen every few days in Burnsville.
How can we have such conflicting reports from the Burnsville, abourt gang arrests occuring every few days, yet the claims made by citizens not feeling safe in our parks and then being refuted as there are no issues with groups of armed teens in our parks? Which is it? Is anyone else as confused by these conflicting reports and the vast differences in what the facts actually are?
July 19th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
I am not confused. We have a mayor and city council that cares more about flower baskets and hanging pots than about the safety and prosperity of the citizens of this city.
July 19th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Biker gangs in Burnsville? I didn’t know that. Definitely an interesting article.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:11 am
Yet another story about this from the “big guys”: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/51265332.html
July 21st, 2009 at 8:45 am
Solution: Roundabout.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:29 am
I just had a lightbulb moment. Wouldnt the HOC look much nicer if all of these messy protesters were able to sit on nice curbside benches surrounded by flowers and humming birds and butterflies?
I think the council and mayor should direct that construction begin asap on a small curbside “protest park” in an effort to minimize the horrible noise and traffic issues caused by these malcontents!
Some nice concrete benches. Huge painted urns or perhaps brick planters. Lots of flowers, done in an arrangement to match the hanging baskets! And they could add an extra stop light and an additiona cross walk, just to make sure none of the protesters is in danger if they need to cross the street and dont want to move from the “protest park” to the cross walk, which might be a distance of some 10 or 15 feet!
Protesting would be much more relaxing with some nice benches to sit on, flowers to smell, and perhaps the ice cream truck from Lakeville could cruise up once in awhile to deliver refreshments?!