Normally I would have arrived at home and banged out an angry and energy filled post full of hate and teeming with expletives which would later need to be erased, over and over again. Instead of responding right away I sat on this idea for several days to give myself some time to think it over and respond in a far less rash manner. Time did little to help my feelings that Apple Valley needs to change something about how it chooses to inappropriately spend my money.
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On Sunday I left the house during the falling snow. Figuring this was Minnesota and I pay my taxes, this really should not have been a problem; after all, those taxes go to important and necessary infrastructure improvements and caring for that infrastructure and not for things like multi-million dollar senior centers and golf clubhouses, right?
As I traversed the snow, ice, and slush covered roadways I noticed two things:
- 1. The snow plows were out doing their thing.
2. What the drivers were doing was not making any sense whatsoever.
First things first, as you can see from the picture above (which was taken at the intersection of CR-42 (county) and Galaxie (city), they hadn’t been plowing and they were using sand instead of salt. Now, sand can be useful but not really when it’s ice on the bottom of the snow and the snow hasn’t been plowed and as people drive on it, it becomes a compacted tundra of slipperiness.
Before reaching that messy intersection of Unplowed Street and Unplowed Ave, I saw Apple Valley’s snow plows giving the best treatment ever to the roads which surround Kelley Park. While plowing nearly unused side streets for an unpopulated area must have seemed like a great idea for the drivers looking to make an extra buck in OT, it didn’t make any sense at all when they weren’t plowing Foliage or Galaxie, both streets which are far more heavily utilized than the nuclear wastelands around the park.
Seeing this and shaking my head, I continued on to my destination via 140th which was still unplowed and with heavy traffic. As I approached Garden View, I lost control of my car, spun in a 360 across the center line and stopped in the on-coming lane and luckily missed both people in my own direction of travel and the truck with a snowplow adorning the front end coming from the opposite direction. After waving my thanks in an embarrassed manner, I thanked my lucky stars my wife and children were not in the car and cursed the four idiots on the Apple Valley City Council who voted for a new golf clubhouse instead of more funding for snow removal.
Listen up: you want to build multi-million dollar facilities which attract little or no new revenue into the city, you go for it but if you do NOT do what you need to do to have a minimum level of basic road care then you made a big error in judgement. The fact that the Apple Valley golf course didn’t have a fancy building didn’t seem to stop revenue for the 30 years the old building was there and the old senior center was apparently just fine yet we have two new ones. Yet, we have very, very, very limited road care in the winter and even when the snowplows are out working (not 500 feet from the snowy intersection of Cedar and Galaxie) they aren’t giving priority to the streets which matter.
I get it, we need to spend tax money on items which meet the needs to everyone. Well, I don’t know what meets the needs of everyone more than plowed roads in the winter. It is very unlikely I, or the vast and overwhelming majority of other Apple Valley residents, will ever step foot in that golf clubhouse or senior center but let me eat crow right now if 99.99999% of Apple Valley residents don’t get out onto those roads at least 6 days a week. Which do you think is more important to the community and our tax dollars?
Were you out in the snow and ice on Sunday? What did you think of the road conditions? Do you think more emphasis should be put on road care in the winter than new buildings for the golf course? Is it amazing to you that unpopulated streets in parks are plowed and cared for before more widely used roads like Galaxie and Foliage? Whatever you have to say about this one go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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February 14th, 2013 at 8:18 am
It’s not just Apple Valley with the problem; I’ve noticed that Dakota County, (which is in charge of snow removal for all county highways) does a lousy job of pre-treating the roads as well. CR-64 (195th Street) is always slick with ice and compacted snow after a snow fall because the plows are always out after the fact. The city of Farmington has generally been good about salting/sanding and plowing our streets.
Up until this morning, MN/DOT has been pretty good about keeping the highways in decent shape. However, every road I was on this morning was complete rubbish.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:21 am
I drove from the southern AV to Oakdale that afternoon. When I was loading up the car to head out, a Domino’s delivery guy pulled in the driveway next door and said ‘If you’re going out, avoid Galaxie and 42 because there’s a bad accident there!’ I took Cedar, which wasn’t much better. 35E moved at around 45 and 494/694 at 35-40. Left at 12:30 and arrived at 1:30. Plowing kudos to Oakdale–I was heading north on Hadley and passed two plows working the southbound stretch.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:24 am
Nils, you are correct about this morning. Galaxie was actually plowed (shocker!) but they were busy working the Kelley Park area, plowing out the little parking inlets on Galaxie. Seriously? Who wants to park in the middle of nowhere at 5:30AM?
Another tainted goes to Eagan…would it kill you to plow Lone Oak Parkway? Or do you just not care about those businesses that remain now that Delta left?
February 14th, 2013 at 9:32 am
It’s not just the south burbs. A few storms ago RT Rybak was retweeting people that were thanking him for plowing the bike trails already when the streets around my house were still a mess.
I think the snowplowing budget is always a gamble for cities and towns and they gambled wrong this year.
February 14th, 2013 at 9:34 am
Bill, glad you’re okay.
February 14th, 2013 at 9:43 am
BK, my mother used to work for Akzo Salt (now owned by Cargill) and they would routinely deal with cities and counties gambling and losing after repeatedly telling them that meteorological projections showed they required more salt than they were buying. Later, when large snowfalls came, the administrators were coming to them crying when the salt company had no way to deliver any salt.
We live in Minnesota; it snows here, a lot. Public administrators and officials need to stop “striking a balance” so we can build MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR GOLF CLUBHOUSES. Full stop.
ks, thanks so much. However, I think you’re the only one who is :)
February 14th, 2013 at 11:04 am
I’m always told by people here in Minnesota what a great job our state and municipalities do in snowplowing and salting after a storm. Obviously, these people have never lived in or traveled to another state in wintertime. We moved here from the snowbelt in Western New York, where the roads are plowed clean clear down to the asphalt during and after storms. I have never been able to figure out why Minnesota plow drivers insist on leaving 1-3 inches of packed snow on most road surfaces. It can’t be for added traction. Maybe they think it will help prevent potholes or something. Anyone in Public Works wanna help me out with this one?
February 14th, 2013 at 12:44 pm
I live on a dreaded cul-de-sac in AV. Sucks to live there in the winter–poor job of plowing those always. Last year after the first snowfall, my daughter ran into the back of a truck at an intersection in AV–totaled her car out. It was ridiculously slippery at that intersection–near a fire hall and day care center and they had plenty of time to have taken care of it prior to the accident. The lady that lived on the corner there told my daughter she had already called the city several times about it but no one had come to salt. I have no idea how they plan the plow routes–I see one truck dumping salt or sand and a little later a truck coming behind it and plowing it all away. Seems a little backwards to me! On a side note, this past Monday morning after the
snow, I gave my daughter a ride to work very early morning up in Spring Park. The roads all totally sucked in AV, freeways were OK for the most part–a few scattered slippery spots, but the drive along Lake Minnetonka on County Rd. 15 was perfect–and saw more snowplows along that stretch of the road than anywhere else. After driving 40 miles up there and then turning around and coming back, the roads in AV still sucked when I got back home!
February 14th, 2013 at 2:24 pm
UWTM, someone told me years ago that they don’t plow down to the road surface because it wears away at the edge of their blades and then they have to replace the blades more frequently. I didn’t know what to make of that then and I still don’t.
February 14th, 2013 at 2:36 pm
You lost control of your vehicle.
The City of Apple Valley, no matter how inept it may be, wasn’t behind the wheel.
You were.
YOU lost control of your vehicle.
February 14th, 2013 at 2:51 pm
Duke, thanks for your insight; it was brilliant.
February 14th, 2013 at 3:00 pm
He just said what I’m guessing was on a lot of people’s minds, Bill.
February 14th, 2013 at 3:20 pm
MSPD, no doubt. I was surprised as well.
February 14th, 2013 at 5:03 pm
Apparently my comment to your post was a bit out of line, given that you have “hidden” it.
I’m not going to apologize- I stand by it.
February 14th, 2013 at 5:09 pm
Duke,
I did nothing of the sort. Other people voted you up and down. An overall -5 score hides it.
February 14th, 2013 at 6:59 pm
In all my years of living in Minnesota I have never remembered the roads being as bad as they are after snow this year. It’s not just Apple Valley.
February 14th, 2013 at 7:17 pm
You spun out because you were driving too fast for the conditions which you should have been able to see were not good. That was an exceptionally wet and heavy snowfall which is more difficult for plows to remove, especially in one pass. This should be no surprise to people who have lived in Minnesota in winter. Drive according to conditions and you won’t have that problem. Its not the fault of the plow operators.
February 14th, 2013 at 7:36 pm
They’ve been pretty shitty in St Louis Park, too, not to mention the freeways on my end of town. I can’t figure it out either, since they spent practically nothing on snow removal last year.
February 14th, 2013 at 7:53 pm
Richie,
Re-read the post and then think about your comment and then think about it again and repost your comment when you figure out what you missed.
Oh, and I was going slower than the rest of traffic but hey, whatever.
February 14th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Honestly, I’m surprised you’re surprised. This is probably the 4th or 5th year in a row were I am left with the only conclusion that those responsible for managing the plowing and salt/sanding have determined that everyone has a AWD or 4WD vehicle in Dakota County. How I’ve come to that determination could go on and on.
What happened to sand? Instead we get salt, so that we get at least 1/2 of the day of slippery conditions and issues at secondary intersections.
I guess I just live with it, I’m pretty good at winter driving. I just wait for gaps to pull into traffic, I decrease speed well before I need to turn, and if the snow is too deep I don’t drive in it.
Looking at the 140th and Galaxy intersection I can only assume you were attempting some sort of change in direction, either to turn, or to switch lanes. Those are the most often causes of spins because you usually end up with 4 wheels on packed snow in the transition from one lane to another.
February 14th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
Not that AWD or 4WD are really all that great on ice at any kind of speed, of course. That’s why you see so many SUVs and pickups in the ditch when roads get slippery, since people forget how friction (or the lack thereof) works.
I agree that the snow clearing around here is pretty much a joke. I commute from Eagan to Burnsville, and Burnsville seems to do a slightly better job, but it’s not perfect. This is Minnesota; they should certainly be able to get it right if other places are able to.
February 14th, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Hate to say it, but its your fault you spun out. The City didn’t drive your car during the storm – you did. The driver is responsible for driving within the limits of their car for the conditions at hand – not anyone else.
I was on the road at the time, and yep, road conditions stunk. I say that driving a 4×4 vehicle equipped with dedicated snow tires, and every advantage legal in the state for traction (can’t use studs here like I could in Colorado). Road conditions usually do stink in that combination of rain, freezing rain, and then snow on top of it. I was expecting bad road conditions, and not shockingly, they were.
What you call sand at 42 and Galaxie likely was a combination of the grunge already on the street along with treated salt. There are different treatments that come in different colors, including brown. Another common color is blue-green. Virtually nobody in the metro uses sand anymore. The only times it gets broken out is in extreme cold or if they are trying to stretch the salt supply.
Your line about Cargill and them knowing how much salt needed to be used is way too funny. Cargill is in the business of selling salt. Naturally, they are interested in pushing more of their product. From past experience, their only goal was to get you to buy more.
Salt is used instead of sand for a variety of reasons. Sand is a traction aid only, salt melts snow and ice. Sand accumulates on boulevards, in storm sewer systems and in ponds and lakes, and must be periodically removed and cleaned up. Salt dissolves, and then magically disappears (thought it then accumulates in our surface and ground water, but that’s another topic). Sand also can contribute to air pollution – PM10 type particles – Denver’s brown cloud was partially caused by all the sand they used that remained on the roads and was ground up into dust.
The comment about the City trucks plowing a wasteland needs to be out in context. How many plows does the City own? What were each of them assigned to do? I’ve noted a time or two that its funny our trails on a nearby street are plowed off before our street is. The reality is they are done by two completely different pieces of equipment, and the 1 ton truck they plow the sidewalk with is not the correct piece of equipment to plow the street with. Just because you see one or two trucks doing something you don’t agree with, you assume the entire operation is incompetent. Kind of like I’ve heard people complain they didn’t see a plow the entire time they drove somewhere, not realizing the plows were a little ahead or behind them them, traveling at the same speed.
The amount of grousing and complaining about snow removal has reached epidemic levels this year. Frankly, given the events like Sundays, they’ve done pretty well. Combinations of rain, freezing rain, and wet snow are some of the most difficult to deal with. Ask any plow driver and they would prefer cold, dry, fluffy snow.
If you had your spinout some time after the snow had stopped falling I may have some more sympathy. You took your chances being out during the event.
February 15th, 2013 at 7:58 am
Dear Bill,
Buy an Audi with good tires.
Sincerely,
lefty
February 15th, 2013 at 8:20 am
Many years ago we lived in upstate New York, one of the snowiest places in the US. They really knew how to plow and years would go by without schools having a snow day in spite of almost daily snow. They plowed all night with plow fronts attached to the town owned trash trucks.
Can’t believe how poor snow removal is in Minnesota having moved here 10 years ago. I tried to go out during rush hour a couple Tuesdays ago and had no problem on the snow packed side streets. When I pulled out at 42 and 13 I fishtailed, had a hard time getting going, and slid around once I headed west on 42. Most drivers were driving cautiously but when others in sedans like mine sped by me I just turned around and went home again, canceling my appointment first in the Walgreens parking lot. Whatever they used on the road made for an oily slushy lubricant. I was glad I could go home.
February 15th, 2013 at 9:23 am
Jason,
I grew up in the mountains where it actually snowed, the roads were cared for appropriately, and there were big hills. Guess what? I never once had the problems I have EVERY SINGLE WINTER here in Minnesota on little snow, no hills, and where the roads are NOT cared for appropriately.
This is an on-going issue. Where I grew up you ignored the snow because THEY TOOK CARE OF THE ROADS and didn’t build city owned multi-million dollar buildings because THEY WERE SPENDING THEIR MONEY ON THE ROADS.
Oh and hey your point about Cargill, at the time not Cargill, is likely true but the anecdote still stands as something that happened year after year, county and city after county and city. You can ignore it all you like but the fact of the matter is that instead of gambling on things that don’t impact the overall safety of residents (like not building senior centers and golf clubhouses) cities around here choose to gamble on the funding their snow removal and care operations receive.
No matter what anyone says, people who have lived in deep depth snow areas of other states have repeatedly noted the road care here is unacceptable and those who live here routinely seem to ignore it. NO IT’S NOT OK AND DEFENDING IT IS WRONG.
February 15th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Bill, you were out driving in the middle of a snowstorm. Not after, but during. Your expectation seems to be that a plow should always be right in front of you so you are never inconvenienced. With the amount of mainline trucks the city has (12 per their website), and lane miles to cover, it works out to about 40 lane miles per truck per event, which honestly is about normal for Minnesota operations at a City. It takes roughly 8 hours to fully plow out at the end of an event for numbers like this.
I suspect if the city actually had as much equipment as you seem to think it should, we’d be getting a rant in the middle of summer about all the money spent on plow trucks just sitting all summer. Trucks for municipal street plowing run between 125,000 and 200,000 depending on the configuration. The trick is finding a use for them the rest of the year, along with the people to operate them.
I grew up here too. Spent all but 5 years of my life here,and the other 5 years in the Colorado mountains, where it snows more than here. Snow removal still is better here, but the conditions and more importantly, driver expectations are different. The mentality seems to changed from I’m a Minnesotan who knows how to drive in snow and ice to My roads aren’t clean enough, waaaahhh… Frankly, its annoying.
I spun out in my car once at an intersection on Gardenview in Apple Valley in 1995. However, I didn’t freak out about how terrible the city was at snow removal. Instead, I took it as a reminder that conditions can change, be prepared, and think about whether you really need to be out there. I’ll note in your photo, the county road looks identical to the city maintained streets. County trucks typically have lower lane miles to cover and a higher level of service. Yet you expects even a lower functioning road to be in better shape…
I stand by my comment your spinout was your fault. I’d wish you luck proving a legal case that the City was responsible.
February 15th, 2013 at 10:24 am
One other thought- have you asked the city for records on how much money js spent on snow removal operations? You state they are spending their money on other things instead of the roads. Is that really a true statement?
February 15th, 2013 at 10:45 am
We have a MUCH different definition of a “snowstorm”. It was little more than flurries at the point I was driving and since the trucks were out plowing unnecessary side streets clearly this is a problem not of the “snowstorm” (dude, seriously, you live in Minnesota and a stowstorm means more than 20″ of blowing and drifting snow, not 3) but of plowing priorities.
February 15th, 2013 at 12:20 pm
So much to say.
First, I agree that so much of our tax money is wasted, instead of spent on things that are important.
Second, I dont know when people got the idea that the roads should be clear while it is snowing. Having lived most of my life in MN, IA, and SD, I have driven on many a snowy road. Its a bit different in the cities, as we dont contend with the blowing and drifting snow to the extent that rural areas do, but it is still a bit unrealistic to think that you should be able to drive without issue at all times. The weather was fairly nasty for a good part of the day Sunday, although it did clear up later in the day. On top of that it snowed a small amount nearly daily for the last couple weeks, which is challenging and expensive for the cities and counties to deal with.
Long story long, I have to agree with the above. You overdrove the conditions, as evidenced by your spin out. The conditions were bad, which you blame on the plows and use of sand instead of salt, but that does not change the fact that the conditions were bad. Other people driving faster than you is part of the bad conditions. When people pass me on a snowy day I say a little prayer that they will have a non injury accident.
Last thing, on salt vs sand, someday soon we may be reading a post about how we have contaminated lakes because the state uses too much salt on the roads, its getting in the lakes, and it does not go away. There was a story in one of the papers on this recently. Having lived for years in South Dakota, where, at least at that time, they used only sand and never salted, I think its just a different set of priorities and expectation on how much you should have to change your driving to be out in a storm.
As noted above, an AWD or 4WD vehicle with snow tires, coupled with conservative driving is really the best prescription for driving in the winter.
February 15th, 2013 at 12:28 pm
Look at the picture you posted. Clearly it had recently done more than just some flurries. While I was on the road that day, it went from a few flurries to heavy snow at times and vice versa.
As far as it being a snow storm, yes it was. Ask the folks in western Minnesota if it was. We happened to be on the lighter end this time, but it was part of a much larger storm.
Any luck on the budget numbers? I’m still giving it the we don’t know that treatment till then…
February 15th, 2013 at 1:05 pm
AWD, 4WD cars/trucks gain you the ability to use power in situations where other vehicles can not. This doesn’t help you in stopping, but does help you in acceleration and in cornering. I’ve owned at least one 4WD vehicle every year for 18 years.
I prefer RWD vehicles to FWD vehicles when driving on snow covered roads because with proper application of weight in the trunk, they can accelerate better, corner better, and stop better in slippery conditions vs a FWD vehicle.
The same people with their AWD cars and trucks end up in the ditch or stuck every year. These are the people that simply do not understand they need to adjust their driving habits and do not understand basic physics.
I don’t think the roads should be cleared of snow fall when it is snowing. But I do think that by 7am, most major roads should have had both lanes in both directions plowed once, and secondary roads should have had at least one lane in both directions plowed. Corners/intersections should either be plowed to the pavement, or sand should be spread with the salt to provide assistance with stopping.
ABS, 4WD, and pumping your foot on the brakes does nothing to stop your vehicle if your tires are truly all on ice. Plowing and de-icing should be focused on ensuring that not all 4 wheels of a car will be on ice at the same time, or the surface of the ice should have sand spread to increase friction. We live on a city street that has a stop sign at the bottom of a slight incline. Moving at less than 5 mph, I and my wife have both slid right through the intersection due to glare ice built up around the intersection. Best we can do is stop before the intersection, look both ways, and then go.
February 15th, 2013 at 1:38 pm
I am not going to contact the city for the budget numbers because I don’t give a shit and I have better things to do w/my time; however, feel free to do so yourself and post them here.
February 15th, 2013 at 1:40 pm
I am guessing this was the problem but I can’t be sure. They should have plowed the road and put down salt. Instead they weren’t plowing but just putting down what JasonS argues is a salt/anti-skid mix. If they had done what you suggested, as they were doing on the roads around Kelley Park that no one drives on, then it probably wouldn’t have been an issue.
February 15th, 2013 at 2:54 pm
Up until around 2003 or so, the snow removal process was a lot better then it is today. That is my perception anyway. Then budget cutting set in: We had a string of mild (by MN standards) winters, and also new deicing methods that used less salt (or in some cases no salt at all).
I know that MN-DOT used to pay overtime to the drivers when it was necessary to get the highways plowed prior to rush hour, But that changed to a strict 8 hour shift due to state budget cutting so now the driver has to get back to the station by the end of their shift. Not sure if the municipalities followed suit or not but it seemed liked they plowed more back then as well.
February 15th, 2013 at 3:04 pm
well considering first it rained, then froze, went to rain/sleet mix then snow it is nearly impossible to not have slick spots out there. Hell I could not even keep my sidewalk from not being slick and yes I keep on top of the clearing as the school bus stop is right by our house. Hate to say it but people traveling on the roads compacting more snow on top of it doesn’t help matters and only complicates matters once they have been plowed. Expecting zero ice on the roads after that storm is expecting way too much. (if you don’t think it was a storm ask the folks that were in Omaha attending the und hockey game why most could not get back home)
February 15th, 2013 at 4:17 pm
On a lighter note, once two years ago when I HAD to be somewhere immediately after a much worse storm, I headed up an almost-empty 35W. Somewhere around Diamond Lake Rd., I passed a Smart Car spinning like a top in the center lane. The driver was sitting patiently, waiting for it to stop. He wasn’t in danger because what little traffic there was, was creeping along anyway. Looked pretty silly.
February 15th, 2013 at 10:40 pm
I’m torn on the use of salt. When I was growing up in SD, only sand was used and the body of my car thanked me for it. I’ve been driving my new (to me) car in MN for about 6 years and noticed the darn thing starting to rust out about 3 years ago. I like that the roads aren’t as slippery, but I’m not looking forward to the day when I can stop my car like I was Fred Flinstone.
February 19th, 2013 at 2:29 pm
One other note to add. While 4WD and/or AWD do not help, strictly speaking, on ice, good snow tires certainly do.
They are something that not very many people invest in, but if you feel the absolute need to be able to drive in any type of conditions, this is a minimal investment that provides solid gains in all traction conditions, including rain, snow, and ice. They dont make your car immune to physics, but they do provide nice traction gains.
February 19th, 2013 at 5:33 pm
Snow tires are useful, yes (as is 4WD or AWD in certain situations), but they are also not cheap. The expectation shouldn’t be that everyone has these things. If we want everyone to have snow tires, then let’s do what Canada does in some provinces (Quebec and parts of BC) and mandate it. Otherwise, the roads should be plowed to a standard where they can be traveled on by those without them. I am not saying that we should never see a speck of white or patch of ice on the pavement, just that we can do better than what we have now.
February 19th, 2013 at 9:21 pm
In theory they cost next to nothing, in that whatever miles you are putting on the snow tires are miles you are not putting on our regular tires, so you get twice the life out of your tires.
In reality it’s not quite that simple, with the cost and hassle of mounting, storage, etc, and the fact that many people don’t keep a vehicle long enough to wear out two sets of tires.
My point was just that if a person feels they have to be able to get out in any weather an Awd/4wd vehicle with snow tires will get you most of the way there. Still won’t help with the other people you encounter out and about on snowy days though.
February 22nd, 2013 at 12:11 pm
Gotta go with Chad. 4wd/awd will get you going faster, but won’t stop you any quicker. Winter tires besides having a more aggressive tread, are also made with a softer rubber compound that is more effective on snow and ice.
As far as cost goes, if you figure in the reduced fuel mileage with a 4wd/awd, a set of winter tires on a fwd/rwd vehicle becomes more cost effective. Also saves on tire rotation costs since you’re rotating twice a year with the tire swap.
I have winter tires for both of our vehicles mounted on separate rims and swap them out myself – takes less than an hour per vehicle. My car is fwd , my wife’s is rwd, with winter tires on all four corners, we have never had a problem getting around.
February 25th, 2013 at 12:56 pm
Clyde, I have used snow tires on both FWD, RWD, and AWD vehicles, and found that the difference is nothing short of amazing with a good set from a reputable company.
Its an noticable difference, and for those who need to be able to get around regardless of the weather I dont hesitate to recommend a good set of snow tires. There is an up front investment, but, as you noted, there is also cost savings in the long run.