Former students who are unable to pay their loans and are defaulting because of it have been all over the news lately. With calls from the public to have the government save them from the problems created by their own choices, even though they may have been young enough to make poor decisions but old enough to be held accountable for them, some are wondering, “why”?
Let’s start with this infographic created by collegescholarships.org. The long form image, while informative on the history of how college debt requirements has changed over the years and why, shifts blame from the individual taking out the loan to the government for passing legislation which disallows those having loans from discharging them due to bankruptcy filing. It seems to suggest that instead of saving, living frugally, working or finding other financial aid sources such as scholarships to fund your education you should fight Congress and get them to change the law so that you are no longer treated like a “criminal” for failure to pay back your loans.
However, even with laws which strip consumer protections from students carrying loans, people are still flocking to college in droves and many of those people will be unable to find a job which will pay off their student debt leading people to wonder, is higher education really worth it? There are some fairly eye-opening statistics which show numbers of college grads working in jobs which definitely do not require college experience such as the 18,000 parking lot attendants, the 317,000 restaurant servers, and the 365,000 cashiers all working in those positions after obtaining a bachelor’s degree or higher. While many of these college grads probably fall into the other listed statistics about those who spend very little time studying, reading and/or writing, one has to wonder what their reasoning for attending college was in the first place.
I recently spoke with a taxi cab driver who was originally from Ethiopia and working in Las Vegas during my recent visit there. His dream was to attend college and become a pharmacy technician so that he could make more than the ~30,000/year he was making working long hours. Being that I worked in college admissions for a couple of years and was intimately familiar with the pharmacy tech program at that institution, I felt it was my duty to suggest to this young man that he might want to look at some other options due to the simple fact that:
- 1. College admissions departments like to cherry pick the best wages of those alumni who report back about their work.
2. Private colleges, which generally offer pharmacy tech programs, are magnitudes more expensive than a state operated institution and are many times not even regionally accredited.
3. You can get on-the-job training at just about any Walgreens or CVS to become a pharmacy technician and degree or not you’re probably going to start at around $10 to $12/hour or less. To this he responded, “but I make more than that now!”
It was these things, among others, that I told him that he had no idea about. He spoke to one college admissions department, had no idea what accreditation meant, and wasn’t even told to look at other options within that same institution which may have been a better fit for him. He was simply a sale to the admissions person and one who would likely never be able to fully afford his loans which he’d probably carry with him for many years to come.
However, not all colleges are just looking to make a sale. A community college in Virginia is requiring all students this coming fall to submit detailed budget worksheets which will show how they plan to repay their obligations both now and after graduation. While the institution readily admits that not everyone will be diligent, forthcoming or even truthful about what they write if the school detects any sort of issues it will be cause to deny their financial aid eligibility.
But even with all of these complaints about the government, higher-ed institutions, and even the work being done to try and fix the root of the problem, it simply comes back to poor decision-making by the students themselves. Plenty of people have worked hard and found scholarships (educational or athletic), waited to find a workplace which would help or outright cover the cost of college, and most importantly chose and attended an institution they could afford to attend instead of shelling out tens of thousands more a year just so they could attend a private school with a fancy name.
Should we really just be ignoring the problems these individuals placed upon themselves because they were young and impressionable? Should we suddenly forgive them for their debt load because they were hoodwinked by admissions personnel who doubled as shrewd salesmen? Are people really suggesting that instead of saving, working before and during college, and finding alternative payment methods that students should fight for the right to avoid their loan liability? Whatever you have to say about this one go ahead and comment on as I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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May 18th, 2011 at 7:50 am
Personally, I feel if you have a debt, you should repay it. I do have a student loan from classes I took a few years back, and am paying that off monthly, as planned.
From my experience, the loan amounts are pretty reasonable, at least until you pass your payoff deadline. Speaking from personal experience, I know I’ve missed one or two along the way due to scatterbrained life at times, but I always catch up on the next month.
This is one of those things, that you kind of have once you’ve completed. If you don’t pay for your house, they take it back, if you don’t pay for your car, they take it back.. I guess, they can’t really take away your education once you’ve graduated..
Bottom line, you signed up for the deal, pay it back.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:22 am
Right now, the Feds are being super flexible with student loan debt, so no one should default unless they find themselves suddenly permanently disabled. The Feds are allowing people to go into forbearance, which means you don’t pay, or you pay what you can afford. And based on my and others experiences, they are allowing people to stay in forbearance for a long time.
I’m in forbearance right now and pay nothing on my big loan, which would be $425/month if I were paying. My interest still accrues, but right now I’m in a situation where I can’t pay that and my mortgage and my credit cards. I totally intend to pay back every cent one day, but right now I’m only paying on my small loan which is $50 a month.
But, to the question of “is college worth it,” I’m not sure. But I know that graduate school was worth it for me. I’m making more than $500/month more than I was before I got my degree, which is about what my student loans are. But, I didn’t go to grad school until I was in a career and I knew that what I was choosing for grad school would further my current career, not bring me into an unknown career.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:32 am
As with housing, I think there’s plenty of blame to go around here, and reform is needed in multiple areas.
I agree that students need to be smart about how much debt they take on, and this has especially been important in the last few years. I can understand how someone back in the late 90′s might have been more optimistic about their future earning potential, but even then, it didn’t mean going to an expensive school was a good idea when less expensive alternatives were available.
Plus, there are things students can do to make the repayment easier — they can take advantage of deferments and forbearances until they get their financial house in order and pay down other debts and minimize expenses, plus there’s been IBR ever since it started a couple years back too. People need to do their homework about this stuff.
That said, there’s other factors at play as well. Degree inflation is a problem — you might not need a degree to do a certain job, but that doesn’t stop a company from asking for one. I know I certainly work with a lot more people with Master’s degrees than I did five years ago, for jobs that require a four-year degree (and sometimes not even then). In this job market, companies figure they can ask for the moon, so they do. As a result people think (rightly or wrongly) that they need that degree to get ahead.
Then there’s how messed up education loan lending has been, though this has been getting better. Private student loan companies had no incentive whatsoever to be responsible in their lending practices — after all, they got their money even if people defaulted, thanks to the loans not being dischargeable. Lenders (private or government) get to skip right to the front of the creditor line, as opposed to having to take their chances in bankruptcy court like other creditors. If you get paid no matter what, what business incentive do you have to be responsible?
Educational institutions need to do their part as well. I like what Tidewater is doing in the linked article; it’s a good idea and more places should do it. I also think the increased accountability standards for for-profit program eligibility for student loans are a good thing too. If the taxpayers are funding them but aren’t getting the money and results back on their investment, that’s a big problem. That said, all educational institutions need to be included in the regulation, since all sectors are contributing to this, not just the for-profits.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:35 am
I’m just leaving college saddled with quite a bit of debt. I did everything right: built up a small cushion working in high school, went to the in-state public school, worked during school, lived at home and took the for 3 of the 4 years, never went on any spring break trips or spent much money. Still, I am deeply in debt. I don’t feel that I should be handed an education, but at the same time I can see how difficult it can be for someone who is middle-class (or god forbid poverty-stricken) to complete college. I purposely took out as little debt as possible, but I still feel like the rest of my twenties will be somewhat tied down because of what debt I do have. Now it’s suggested that I go on to get an advanced degree, but I don’t know if I have the stomach for that.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:36 am
Took the bus, that is. Time for coffee #2.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:37 am
God bless the child that’s got his own.
May 18th, 2011 at 10:59 am
This is something I feel pretty strongly about.
As noted by others above, there are many issues which overlap somewhat, however I feel like the majority of the problem is irresponsible behavior by parents and irresponsible children.
While I could be persuaded to feel bad about the people who are taken advantage of by the for profit colleges who, as you noted, are simply sales people in disguise, I think that’s a fairly easy problem to address and a little added consumer protection is probably not the end of the world.
The ones that drive me nuts are the kids who go to a private liberal arts college and get a degree in History or Philosophy or any of a hundred other more or less obscure degree programs and then get out of school with 40,000 plus (often far more than this) in debt and don’t understand why they are forced to take an entry level position making 10 bucks per hour. The often borrowed the max each year, partied throughout college, went on spring breaks, ect. The idea that after their 4 or 5 year sabbatical/vacation, I should somehow feel bad they have to cut back and start living a frugal life is mind boggling.
Its really a slap in the face to all the people who have worked their asses off to go to school, work, pay their debts, raise kids, etc, etc, etc. For every pampered brat who feels entitled there is an immigrant or kid from a poor household who borrowed, worked, and scraped to get by and never asked for anything in return other than a fair chance. Every single person crying that they should have their loans forgiven should be humbled by the single mother who worked full time, went to school part time, and raised a child just to get that paralegal degree so they could provide a better life for their kids.
This whole idea of forgiving student loans is something that has gained a lot of positive support in the press recently, and its beyond ridiculous.
And, to offer some free advice, Kassie, you should really figure out some way to at least pay the interest on the loan you have in forbearance because your debt will truly snowball at a faster rate than your income will increase.
In the interest of full disclosure, I went to college, partied REALLY hard for about 6 years, wasted a ton of money, and continue to pay off my own debts to this day. I would benefit greatly from the forgiveness of my loans, but I have nobody but myself to blame for my short sighted approach to college. In addition my wife worked in the student loan industry for more than a decade and has an advanced degree. (Her loans have all been paid off for years).
May 18th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Sorry, in my long rant above, I failed to make clear that I think our education system is broken from K – College.
While conservative at heart, i would be all for a complete overhaul, which might include something like two years of community college free for every child in America, FOLLOWING complete of two years in the armed service OR two years in the Peace Corps of some similar service obligation (building roads is fine with me). I think this would help everyone. Kids dont go off to college fresh out of high school with no idea of who they are or who they want to be, people gain a sense of self worth and learn to serve others, etc.
Absent of that kind of thing, I still feel our community colleges are a horribly under used path to inexpensive higher education.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
I am not an idiot. Nor am I lazy or overly self-indulgent. Neither are my parents. But I am one of those people, from a blue-collar middle-class family, that made the fatal mistake of going to liberal arts college (although I majored in writing & publishing, not history or philosophy; communications had relatively good prospects at the time). I had fun in college, but it was hardly a sabbatical. I worked a lot. I paid my own rent/books/living expenses, etc.
I was the first person in my family ever to go to college. Was it naive of my parents to believe that:
1. I would make a much better living than they did, and therefore easily be able to pay of my debts?
2. That I would be getting a better education in small classrooms with more direct personal interaction, and that would be worth paying for?
3. That private schools look better to future employers?
It is now clear that it WAS naive of them to think those things. However, in context of what was happening at the time, I don’t think it really was. There were actually hundreds of job recruiters that went through my college in 2000 – this was not a sales pitch; I saw it, and I knew people who got pretty decent jobs that way. A high percentage of the students one year ahead of me had jobs before they graduated (of course, alot of those people lost their jobs around the time 9/11 happened). Before I had ever signed up, 3 of my mom’s nephews had gone through liberal arts college and had jobs before they graduated. Unfortunately, by the time I was graduating in 2001, nothing was happening in the career center at my college but a cold wind. I spent the entirety of my 20′s dead broke, and struggling to get a toe-hold in an actual career. I finally just climbed my way into a livable wage at age 31.
However, sob story aside, I pay my fucking loan payments. I made that decision. I made it based on what turned out to be VERY misguided notions about how the world would be when I graduated. And my life has been A LOT shittier than it would have had to be. But they are still my responsibility. Based on my experience, I can emotionally understand why people want to throw in the towel and default. Particularly those of us that started college in the 90s and ended it with the rug pulled out from under us in the 00s.
But, for the most part, my response is that the defaulters can suck it. If I had to pay for my mistakes, you should too. Especially in the last 10 years of financial mess. You would have to be living under a rock to have no awareness that you are NOT going to be making a lot of money when you graduate, unless you are a huge superstar (although, as I understand it, children’s comprehension of “superstar” is skewed these days!) so you shouldn’t get in over your head.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
I think for-profit colleges are horrible. I checked out one near me and found out that for a 1.5 year (I think?) paralegal course, I’d have had to pay $27K. That’s about how much 3 years of in-state undergrad was for me.
I’m hesitant at the idea of just blanket writing away of debt – whether it was the housing debt a few years ago or educational debt. I do think predatory lending is disgusting, and college is overpriced, but… Yeah, I don’t have a great solution. With the housing situation, it kind of felt like people like us who had saved up, gotten a sensible, fixed-rate loan for a house well within our means weren’t deserving of being helped, while people who bought houses outside their means and decided to finance that with an ARM were being “rewarded,” in a sense. It used to be that the expectation was for college students to start paying off their debt after they graduated and found a job, with the presumption that finding a job would happen very quickly with a college degree. However, with the current economic situation, I guess that’s less likely to be possible. I could see them extending the interest free period on paying back the loan, but forgiving all of it seems to go too far.
I’ll be the first to admit that both my husband and I were very lucky. He got a full scholarship in undergrad (he found a super obscure one and was the ONLY ONE who applied for it) and received a fellowship for grad school (apparently if you’re white and a US citizen and want to study engineering/science in grad school, you’re considered a minority and the government will practically fight to give you money). My parents saved up enough that they paid for my tuition – I also made it easier for them by choosing the much much cheaper in-state, public university over the out-of-state private college, and then by choosing to study electrical engineering over something that might’ve made it harder to find a job (like history or art, which I probably like better).
For anybody thinking of going back to grad school (for a Ph.D.), remember, if it’s a good school, depending on the department, and you have good grades/recommendations/etc, they’ll pay you to go back. That’s how I’m going back to study computer science at the U. Tuition is covered and you get a small salary that’ll cover basic expenses. Nothing terribly extravagant, but you won’t accumulate more debt and you’ll get some income.
May 18th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Alissa, we are not totally on the same page, but we also dont disagree with each other.
I would be interested to know what kind of job you were hoping to find in the writing world that paid a wage that would justify 20k or 30k per year in tuition.
I think its a common misconception that going to a small college with a small class size will somehow help you get a better job. In my humble opinion, that may be the case if you are an outstanding student and world class networker, but I would argue that if that is the case, you would have succeeded anyplace. Short of an actual ivy league college, most HR people and recruiters have no idea how Buena Vista College might compare to Augustana or Gustavus Adolphus, particularly if they dont live very close by geographically.
I think the “press” would do everyone a bigger favor if instead of publishing crap pushing for changes allowing people to default on student loans they started publishing actual studies and information on the real cost of college and the actual value of a college education. More information on how to kids can get ahead by taking college classes in high school and taking the first two years at a community college, etc.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Students need to be asked the question, “What kind of education can you afford?” Alissa wasn’t asked this question. Most students aren’t. If you are not from a wealthy family and you are not going to get exceptional aid or scholarships and you aren’t going to become a doctor, lawyer or lottery winner, then you probably can’t afford anything more than a state subsidized education.
This is a hard truth that most 18-year-olds and their parents don’t want to hear. I for one hope that this question is asked of more students by their high school guidance counselors. The admissions staff at the four year liberal arts institutions sure aren’t going to ask it.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Lian, I have worked in both public non-profit and private for-profit educational institutions all of my adult life and I have to say this: each want your money just as bad as the other and will do anything to get it.
However, there are differences as to their motivations for doing so. For-profit institutions want more money so that they can make their shareholders happy. Public non-profits don’t care about their shareholders (taxpayers) as much as they do keeping their underworked and generally overpaid unionized faculty and staff employed.
Believe me, you can hate all you like but make sure you hate evenly. One is taking your tax dollars directly and through financial aid and the other is just taking it via financial aid. One is only less expensive because they’re only 99% taxpayer funded instead of 50%.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Chad, I think that part of your response is starting to dive into personal values. First, my degree wasn’t necesarily in “the writing world,” it was a communications degree including various types of writing, editing, and graphic design. It seemed like a somewhat safer career bet than, say, journalism, in the realm of what I’m good at (which doesn’t include math and science). I didn’t expect to be rich, but I didn’t expect to be quite so poor, either.
I think that the private school argument DID have some validity at the time. I don’t think it does anymore. Don’t get me wrong; there is no way that I would advocate sending my own children to private college now (unless via scholarship/academic achievement). However, as previously stated, every year up until the year I graduated there were plenty of job recruiters there. Of course I don’t think that small private schools made or make one scrap of difference in jobs on a national level; but I didn’t plan on leaving MN. It was demonstrable that people from my school were getting decent jobs quickly. I don’t think that it was unreasonable for me to expect that I would be making more than $8 an hour when I graduated (that’s what I made, in retail, for the first 6 months after graduation).
Larger point being, I made my college decision based on information and observation available at the time. And the information changed. What we appear to disagree on at this point was whether or not my misguidedness was any different than yours. To your point about partying and wasting a lot of money: justification is in the eye of the beholder. What’s yours? That you were a kid, right?
Regardless, responsibility for cleaning up the mess should be in the hands of the person that made the mess. On that point, I think that we do agree. We just made different kinds of messes.
BTW, I also agree that the media should be shining the light on what’s really causing the default problem.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
Well, bottom line is that a student loan is a committment that you agree to when you get the money so you should pay it always–never any question there–tough life lesson for some young people but a necessary lesson. My daughter is currently attending St. Kates and has taken a small student loan. I have taken a Parent Plus loan this year also which I am already paying back. Next year I hope to make it without the loans, but the tuition is high, financial aid non existent and my bank account ailing, so we will see how it works out :-) The smartest move was going to Inver Hills CC for 2 years. I paid for that when the bill came without the need to take out any loans and she got almost all her pre requisites done leaving only the last two years of college to worry about financing. She took a lot of ridicule from Eastview HS about going to CC, but who cares–she is doing fabulous in school, had no problems transferring any of her credits to a 4 year school and will come out of it owing only a small amount. She works, pays for most of her own optional living expenses (lives at home but pays for all the extras on her own) and knows she made a committment to pay those loans off when she is out of school, regardless of if she gets a job right away or not. Sure, we’ve made some sacrifices to get her there–no boats, older cars, frugal living, etc. but in the end–it is all about what is important to each person individually, if they want to make it happen or not.
May 18th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
I write for a living, and I can afford to eat at fancy restaurants when I want.
The jobs are there and the money is there, you just need to be qualified.
May 18th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
My husband and I saved for our kids education from the time that they were born. We were able to make it last through four years of UMD. Both received some scholarship money (athletics, academic and from the particular major) over the years. Unfortunately, they both became super seniors and had to take out loans for part of the final year. I kind of see that as a life lesson for them. By the way, most private colleges offer academic scholarships that bring the cost down pretty close to the level of the state schools. The problem with these are that you have to maintain that academic standard through out your college years. Good grades in high school do not always equate to good grades in college. And I would say that private schools tend to keep their students on the four year plan better.
I do wish that we would have thought about the community college route. Both of them changed their majors at least once resulting in the longer stay. Most 18 year olds have no clue what they want to be when they grow up.
May 18th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Yikes…he took the words right out of my mouth. In fact, I’m part of a process to hire a strong writer right now (somewhere in the $60-80K/annual range, full benefits, etc.). I think what’s scaring prospective applicants is the requirement to work with/for me.
May 18th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
In addition to the CC route there is also PSEO in MN. Take advantage of it. Take college credit while in HS for free and it applies to college when you get in. Many PSEO students reduce their time to completion by significant amounts (two semesters or more) without any cost to them directly (taxpayers are affected obviously and PSEO funding can go away at any time).
May 18th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
I think it has become too easy in society for people to use “the recession” as the reason for their problems.
If more people would pick a target, and work both harder and smarter to reach that goal as opposed to complaining about what is standing in their way that would be fine with me.
Kassie, what is stopping you from finding a job that will allow you to pay your bills? I just don’t get the part where you say you got your Masters or whatever and got a job that covers the loan but then you bought a house and ran up your credit card bills knowing you had those loans?
With all due respect…
May 18th, 2011 at 6:17 pm
I have around $40K left in both federal and private student loans from my time at a private liberal arts college. However, when I went to Augustana, tuition hovered just under $12,000, and that’s including room and board. I considered going to one of the state schools in South Dakota, but neither of them offered much in the way of academic or music scholarships due to the number of students. When I did the math, the scholarships that Augie offered me, brought down the price to just a few thousand above what I would have paid at either state school. I feel I got an excellent education for an excellent value and feel bad for current Augie students faced with a $30K per year price tag (suckers, the lot of them).
My student loan obligation is substantial, but not crushing. I made the decision to get a private loan to cover what the Staffords wouldn’t, but I made sure that loan was through my personal bank, where I’m a very good customer, and who is happy to work with me to make my payments affordable and at an interest rate incredibly lower than the government’s (even with average credit!). Even though I am able to meet my obligations, I still kind of wished that I would have saved more, worked more, lived at home instead of the dorm, and chose a more affordable school because at one point, for the price of that education, I could have bought a C-Class Mercedes.
That’s why, when I made the decision to go to grad school, I was determined to pay as I went and not take out any more loans. I chose a graduate program at a school that is accredited, but incredibly affordable (Metropolitan State), and geared toward working adults and supportive of job seeking alumni. I am also lucky to work for a company that paid for 75% of my tuition with pretty much no strings attached, other than choosing a major that would theoretically advance you within the health care field. Sure, it took me almost 5 years to get my MBA, but it’s worth it knowing that I have an advanced degree minus the advanced debt.
I think kids need to take a hard look at what they want to study and what the economy is like for that field and make their decisions accordingly. They need to ask themselves if they really are getting a better education at a fancy private school or if they could get a similar education at a cheaper school and save themselves the economic heartache.
May 18th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
I should add that I feel sorry for the kids at my Alma Mater who are spending 30K a year to study elementary education in…especially when they will be making roughly $25,000 a year in the South Dakota public school system as a 1st grade teacher.
May 18th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
Who’s fault for the student loans, or the failure to pay? The failure to pay is pretty much about the same for the foreclosure racket. Educational lender rolling the dice and assuming once rosey, always rosey. I think there was more evidence of the decreasing value of many college degrees well before the general economy and employment slump.
Again we run into a situation where it is an issue of motiviation. Why should anyone feel motivated to struggle with their payments, when the government has already proven that they’ll bail you out? Certainly that rubs a certain type of peope the wrong way. And then there are the type of people that cheer and say yeah, the government really must love me, yeah government!
I have a sense that there are people that need schooling to give them the confidence to try something. They are unable to teach themselves and/or they need to be taught how things work before they feel they can do anything. Other types of people are uncomfortable in teaching situations. They tend to need some very basic instruction, often self study. Such people feel they can do anything, even if they’ve never done it before.
Neither way of learning is necessarily better, as there is a real value to general education. It just seems that today, the self motiviated, highly flexible person is going to be more employable regardless of their degree. Certainly some jobs require a degree. I think the most valuable degrees today are in Mathematics.
My oldest is currently paying off student loans (and living at home) after a 2nd failed attempt at college. The first one I paid for, the 2nd he had to cover. He really can’t figure out what he wants to do. He wants to be a music star, and can’t seem to figure out anything else.
My youngest is going to Inver Hills taking as many credits that UPS will pay for as he works on getting generals done with a plan to transfer to the UofM at some point in the future. He has multiple plans, all involve a 4 year degree at a minimum. Something with Mathematics as it is his strong point.
I spent a quarter at Normandale, and never looked back. My dad paid for the few credits I took there (I paid for the books). I’ve been employed full time since 1987 with only a total of 8 weeks ever where I was unemployed. 6 of them in 2009/2010 and my income has increased every year except for the change in 2009/2010. I found a nitch that I could excel at around 1989, I took some chances in the early 90′s, built a good network of satistifed bosses, and impressed coworkers and continue to exceed the expecations of anyone I work for.
As far as how you deal with the issues today. I wouldn’t have a problem with extending their period to repay, but I don’t think the obligation should be removed.
May 18th, 2011 at 9:43 pm
lefty- my husband left me and left me with the whole responsibility of the underwater house. I can’t pay my student loans, my credit card debt, the monthly payment I have to make to him (don’t ask) AND my mortgage. I’m trying to do the right thing and not go into foreclosure, but that means I can’t pay my student loans right now. I never expected to have to pay for this house on one income.
And there are no jobs out there, especially where I want to work, so that’s what is stopping me from getting a new, better paying job.
May 18th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
Bill, I’ll have to disagree with you. Yes, they both take my money, that’s normal (after all, it’s what makes the world go ’round and all that), but universities (at least the ones I’ve been associated with) have much more redeeming value. Look at the research the University of Minnesota has done. The Honeycrisp apple, for a smashing success. But also smaller things – the graphics group at the U is researching ways for doctors to visualize volumetric data – much easier to read things in picture form than looking at numbers. So no, I can’t hate on them equally – because at least universities provide *some* good.
May 18th, 2011 at 10:01 pm
Alissa, I make no attempt to justify the years I spent in college. I had an incredible time. I made lifelong friends. I put myself deeply in debt. I went skiing several times a year in the Black Hills or CO. I took incredible road trips with friends each summer. I spent 4 or 5 nights a week at the bar. I met my wife. It was, pardon the cliche, the time of my life.
All that said, it was also a waste of thousands of dollars. I would have been far better off spending a couple years in the military, or even just working a blue collar job busting my ass building a bridge or something. A few years to get my priorities in order and see the world would have done me a world of good. I think it would do most 17 or 18 year old kids a great deal of good.
For what its worth though, I started a college fund for my son within a few days of his birth and continue to contribute religiously. Probably much the same as your parents hoped for you, I just want him to have the chance to choose his own path and not have to worry about the financial implications.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:13 am
Lian,
Let me know when Inver Hills or Pine Tech has done some worthy research. I’d love to hear about it. You know as opposed to say what the University of Phoenix or DeVry has done to better government reporting and/or public data disclosure about success metrics for universities.
Because I promise you that apples aren’t as important as that.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:30 am
I don’t understand your point, Bill. Inver Hills is a community college, not a university.
I’m talking about my own experiences. I don’t know what University of Phoenix has done – I just know about the news reports about for-profit colleges screwing over its students by promising them one thing and leaving them with useless degrees and large debts.
The 3 universities I went to – University of Virginia, Purdue University, and University of Minnesota, have all been outstanding, and what I think of when I say “university.” I don’t think you can compare DeVry to say, Purdue, whose engineering department is one of the best in the country and has a state of the art nanotechnology center.
I don’t understand your sarcasm, either. I stated very clearly that my opinions were based on my own experiences, just like yours are presumably based on your job experiences (as you stated earlier). Are you trying to say that the University of Phoenix has done a lot of good? Or is that your way of saying they’ve done nothing? I’m sorry you and I don’t agree, but you didn’t have to get so antagonistic about it. You asked for our opinions, and I gave it. I think the universities I went to were great and did good stuff, and, in my opinion, were much better than for-profit universities. You obviously disagreed.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:45 am
Guess I’m just defensive about my comments as they’re based in fact rather than experience and sweeping generalizations based on interpretations provided by the media.
My bad. Carry on.
May 19th, 2011 at 1:04 am
Now you’re just being rude. What’s wrong with getting my information from the media? Or basing my opinions on my own experiences? From the other replies in this thread, we’re all guilty of that, but you choose to attack my views as invalid because they’re different from yours? From your first reply to me, you hearkened back to your own experiences.
Are you yourself not a member of the media? I read your restaurant reviews, and others, and form my own opinion. I just read the wiki article on the University of Phoenix- doesn’t change my opinion about for-profit schools one bit. I’ll be glad to read anything informative you provide, but you’ve just made general statements and adopted a dismissive attitude towards me. I’m sorry you seem to find me infactual- I just thought I’d share my own opinion. I try to be a nice and open person and explain my side clearly, and disagree respectfully. I guess that was dumb of me.
May 19th, 2011 at 5:03 am
It wasn’t meant to be rude or offend you. My apologies that it came off as such.
May 19th, 2011 at 6:42 am
Lian, the idea I had from your posts was that you are over generalizing a bit. I would agree 100% that lots of great research is done at Universities around the country, although its not as altruistic as you sort of make it sound. They do this with the sole goal of coming up with products, ideas, and technologies that they can sell, patent, license, etc. There is nothing wrong with that, but to be clear it is part of thier business plan.
At the same time, I am sure many great advances and discoveries have been made at community colleges and for profit colleges as well. The “I am a Pheonix” commercials come to mind, and I seem to vaguely remember that lots of advances in solar power and energy research have been made at the community college level. In addition to turning out all sorts of people trained in specific trades that sort of make our country move. Electricians, Utility workers, mechanics, truck drivers, paralegals, etc, etc, etc………
Its also worth pointing out that someone above noted that a paralegal program at a for profit college would cost as much as 3 years at a state university. I am sure the paralegal program would respond that after 1.5 years the new paralegal would have a “degree” that would allow them to get into the workforce in a respected career, while after 3 years at a state university, you would have nothing but another year+ of school to look forward to.
There are problems at all levels of our education system. For every great engineering professor that Purdue has, there is probably a tenured, overpaid professor that does nothing more than give the same biology 101 speech to 200+ kids three days a week.
I know I did work study in the Earth Sciences dept at the University of South Dakota………one of my jobs was to go through the trade journals and magazines that one of the professors subscribed to and cut out the articles he had highlighted when he first read the magazine and place them into three ring binders according to a catalog system he had developed for himself. I was paid…….presumably taxpayers money………for this exercise in futility. My guess is this is a very mild example of waste at the University level.
May 19th, 2011 at 8:50 am
Kassie, I think you hired the wrong lawyer.
Don’t even get me started on a pussy boy that needs his ex-wife to support him after the divorce. Same goes for women who take free money from men in the same situation.
I am not ripping child support, just alimony and “palimony”.
May 19th, 2011 at 10:08 am
Chad, I definitely did over-generalize, but that’s why I stressed this was based on my own experiences. I stated in my 2nd post that I do understand that everything is for money. We do research to sell stuff… to make other people money. Even if someone does cure cancer, it’ll be so Pfizer or Merck can make…a ton of money. They fund professors at research universities because it’s cheaper to pay a grad student – $10K-$20K/year to do research vs. paying an employee the $50K-$60K they’d command, plus benefits and retirement, etc.
I agree that community colleges are great places (I love that you can take classes at Inver Hills and then transfer the credits to the U – it’s brilliant), but I have no experience with them (I should probably add that I don’t think they’re pro-profit places, and have been/am writing with the assumption that they’re not). I assumed they were class based only, since I know someone who teaches there. If they did do research as well, that’s really amazing.
Thank you for the examples you provided – that is a good point that lots of the skilled work force do use for-profit colleges for education.
Nobody wants to admit they’re working for the evil corporation, so the young, idealistic me probably does view the universities that I went/go to with a bit of rose-tint. The project you described doesn’t seem that bad to me, if a bit idiosyncratic. Citing journal publications is a crucial step in writing research papers, and having those journals neatly organized and at hand to grab for reference saves precious time. Granted, these days with the internet, that’s a bit too much, but it sounded like this was before that? (I hope I didn’t just make a wrong assumption…) I have been super lucky to work with hard working, brilliant professors – ones that care about the students and work on weekends to do more research. I know there are bad/lazy professors, too – you hear about them among the students, to avoid their classes or avoid working for them. Ones that have become lazy and uncaring after receiving tenure, who are next to impossible to contact and only do the minimum for that paycheck.
Purdue’s student newspaper is independent of the university, and every year they publish the salaries of all the faculty and staff that works for the university (and highlight the highest paid members of the faculty). I tried to find it online, but only found an editorial about it – apparently while this information is “public,” it’s not that public. It’s included in the print version of the newspaper, and is usually one of the most popular issues. From 2006/2007, when I was last there, engineering professors made about $90K or more – I think the average was around $120K? This is pretty high, but compared to an industry job requiring a similar amount of education and experience, understandable. On the other side, my art professor – very talented and respected in his field, with many years of teaching experience, was only earning $36K a year. These are the only two numbers that I remembered, since those were the classes I was taking at the time and I was shocked at such a huge disparity.
Bill – I probably did become too dismissive of pro-profit colleges in the beginning, and that was my fault. Our worldviews are shaped by our own experiences. I’ll be the first to admit that my high school life was a bubble (most public high schools don’t have 100% graduation and going to college rates or have the average student take 5 courses for college credit). I was very lucky there, and very lucky that my parents saved up enough to send me to good colleges and very lucky that I met a good guy who got a good job here. But I’m open to learning and changing my opinion, and so I ask a lot of questions and read as much as I can.
May 19th, 2011 at 10:20 am
Lian, it’s simply that for-profit institutions have received bad exposure and the threat of government oversight due to issues practiced at a handful (and mainly one) for-profit institutions. Not every admission rep is a sleaze ball and not every institution is at it solely for the money.
While I have never attended courses at the UoP nor have I ever worked for them, I am impressed with their extension of access to ~225,000 full-time students. Any institution willing to get that many people into courses and working towards a degree is good in my book.
But, that said, I just wanted to make it clear that working for both sides of the coin I saw nothing so very different between the two that would make me feel that for-profits are anything less than the non-profits. People still make money at non-profit institutions after all; it’s just that one is upfront about it and the other is not.
May 19th, 2011 at 11:23 am
“For every pampered brat who feels entitled there is an immigrant or kid from a poor household who borrowed, worked, and scraped to get by and never asked for anything in return other than a fair chance. Every single person crying that they should have their loans forgiven should be humbled by the single mother who worked full time, went to school part time, and raised a child just to get that paralegal degree so they could provide a better life for their kids.”
“More information on how to kids can get ahead by taking college classes in high school and taking the first two years at a community college, etc.”
Chad, you’ve basically summed up my life in your posts.
I took PSEO in high school, got my freshman writing course requirement out of the way, got to leave school at noon everyday, worked on the days I didn’t have my college class and made extra money. I encouraged my sister to do the same and she had 29 credits (a full year) at the U of M under her belt before she started her freshman year there. I cannot sing the praises of PSEO enough.
“As far as how you deal with the issues today. I wouldn’t have a problem with extending their period to repay, but I don’t think the obligation should be removed.”
Mikeh, I love this idea.
I’ve been making the minimum payments on my two loans since I graduated and while it isn’t making a huge dent in the loans, I feel good that I am satisfying my responsibilities.
“I don’t feel that I should be handed an education, but at the same time I can see how difficult it can be for someone who is middle-class (or god forbid poverty-stricken) to complete college.”
Patrick S., I’d actually worry more about a kid coming from a middle class family than the kid coming from a lower-middle class family. I did 1.5 years at Normandale and didn’t pay a dime for it because of how miniscule my mom’s income was. In fact, I often received a check from Normandale for $600-800 per semester because my financial aid exceeded the tuition costs. I used that money towards my books and still had some money left over. Being poor meant going to school for much cheaper than everyone else but I never forget what life was like before I went to college.
Bill, I used to have the same opinion towards for-profits like Lian. I thought an education at one of these places was worthless with the exception of a few people. I would still never recommend someone to go to a for-profit, but your experiences working on both sides have opened my eyes a bit more towards the non-profits.
I’d be very hard-pressed to say that a higher education is worth it these days. I would say a higher education is worth it, depending on the price you’re paying. Parents and prospective students need to take it upon themselves to become more informed and educated about the cost of higher education.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
lefty,
It is complicated. If I went through every single detail you would agree that I did the right thing knowing what I knew at the time. And while I got screwed, it was cheaper and easier to pay my ex than to pay my lawyer and she made that clear. Not a lot of lawyers out there would have even pointed out that it was better to pay someone else other than them. But overall, I took the moral position that if I enter into a debt, I’m going to pay it and that’s why I got stuck with the house. If he would have took it, he would have foreclosed on it and ruined my credit completely. Of course, it is looking more and more like I’m going to have to foreclose anyhow, but at least I’m making my best effort to hold on to the house and pay my debts.
May 19th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
It took me seven years to get my bachelors because I paid cash the whole way. I never took out a loan.
I now am going to school full time for my Masters degree and when I tell other students I am paying for grad school myself. They almost choke and often ask me why I bother. I often wonder myself lately. I become very frustrated as I watch the majority of other students not working because they get enough money from student loans to survive somewhat comfortably. (Did I mention I take the same amount of credits as them?) Did I mention many also get state funded health insurance? …WAY better insurance than mine btw.
I work full time, am a mom, AND still keep the grade point average I need to stay in my program. Though, it truly sucks when I am compared to students who have nothing else to do but study, and I get a B and they get an A on the same assignment. I try not to complain as I know it is my choice to pay for school this way… I just can’t bring myself to get handouts when I know I am able to do this; even if it is often a struggle.
As they all talked about how “stressed” they were at the end of our semester, I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry… They have no idea what stress is…
May 19th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
Kassie,
I am glad we agree that your ex is a pussy boy.
Best of luck, seriously.
May 19th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
KRock and Dan, in my opinion stories like yours are the reason that people should be ashamed to ask for thier loans to be forgiven simply because they did not realize they were going to have to live a more frugal lifestyle after college than they became accustomed to during college.
Kassie, I have no idea what transpired between you and your ex, and your atty for that matter, but I wish you the best of luck. In all honesty, if you dont put the breaks on the growth of your loans, they really will snowball. Maybe not what you want to hear, and it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing, but if you are not at least paying the interest, they are growing through the magic of compounding interest.
May 19th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
“I’ve been making the minimum payments on my two loans since I graduated and while it isn’t making a huge dent in the loans, I feel good that I am satisfying my responsibilities.”
Dan, don’t get discouraged about your loans. I found that, depending on your repayment structure, after about 2-3 years of faithful repayment you will start seeing that dent. Mainly because most lenders will decrease your interest rate by a quarter percent for every year you pay on time. Furthermore, student loans are much like mortgages, the first few years most of your payment goes to accrued interest, but after that you’re making a real difference in the principal.
What’s ironic about my situation is that I deferred my loans while I was in grad school. Had I still made payments on my private loan, I would have paid it off in full last year. As it stands now, 4 years of deferment have added about 6 to 8 full years to my loan repayment. Right now, I really wish I would have listened to my dad and either made those payments or put the payment I would be making into savings. But then, I’m an MBA recipient who’s kind of bad with her money…heh.
May 19th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Chad, it depends on what type of federal loans Kassie has. If they’re federally subsidized loans, the interest accrual might not be a factor (although I have no idea if the interest rate is subsidized for forbearance as it is for deferment). With federal loans there really isn’t much of an option to decrease the payment other than attempting to refinance it or go to a graduated plan (which doesn’t really lower the payment meaningfully). Most people either have to forbear or default, with forbearance being a more attractive option. Defaulting on federal loans is like not paying your taxes. The government might put up with it for a while, but eventually they’re going to garnish your wages at a higher rate than the original payment.
On the topic of should loans be forgiven, I think in some circumstances they should (and are if the person basically can never work again due to catastrophic illness or disability). I’d like to see the bankruptcy laws loosened a little bit for student loans, or at least give the judge the option to forgive loans in certain cases.
May 19th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
I think that currently happens (forgiving loans in extreme cases) – I know a girl on one of my forums who is so severely disabled that she is unable to work, and as a result the government forgave her college loans a few months ago (after she applied for it and waited for a few years).
May 19th, 2011 at 9:34 pm
The big problem, or one of them at least, with the disability thing is that people who are disabled can and do take out student loans. To give them a loan, and then forgive the loan later seems a bit……….silly?
The other issue with that idea is that, as with Social Security Disability, a few people taking advantage of the system sort of ruin it for the people who really need it.
However, I am not opposed to forgiveness in the case of such things. Perhaps forgiveness for student loans if you fall under one of the current SSD compassionate allowances? I am sure there are ideas and thoughts that make sense, but on balance, you took out the loan, you should repay it.
May 19th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
Chad, since a lot of fed loans have a repayment term of 25 years, I’m guessing most people took out loans before becoming permanently disabled and are unable to continue working. But that’s just a guess.
May 20th, 2011 at 9:13 am
Aliecat, I am sure that is often the case, and in that case it is already the policy to discharge loans for permanent total disability.
May 20th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Kassie – there are a lot of people that would make the opposite decision. Let the house go – maybe through a short sale – and allow yourself to get to an expense level that matches your income. If the house payment is killing you that might be the best route – there’s certainly no shame in that as it sounds like you are a great candidate for a short sale.
June 16th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/06/15/qt/study_nonprofit_colleges_get_profit_from_undergrads
June 4th, 2012 at 8:07 am
http://www.mintpress.net/student-loan-hits-record-904-billion-relief-sight/
$904 billion in student loan debt with the number still rising.